So, turret balance

[TechSY730]

Yea, sadly, sometimes the optimal strategy when fighting someone who is using a "grindy" strat (the player funneling into an "ultra chokepoint" is to use a similarly level of "grindiness" that they will have to go through (the AI ultra chokepointing in right back). Though smart, usually leads to unfun situations, even if the AI is acculmulating this "chokepoint" at a fair rate (which is what the problem was with the old hybrids, they got too much too fast, thus it felt like they were "cheating" too much)

So, do you keep the AI smart and just let the player know they indirectly "asked for it" by turtling up? Or do you not have the AI indulge in this behaviour, though smart, can often times lead to "grind" or stalemates, and instead not take the optimal, and thus intentionally make it "stupider", route to preserve the "fun" in this common but somewhat degenerate circumstance?

I honestly don't know the answers to these types of questions...

[Zeyurn]

I'm a turtler, it's what I do.  I'd prefer if the AI didn't dumb itself down for me because turtling is what I have fun with.  I also love crushing enemy fortifications and such, I don't personally see it as a grind.  But I can understand why people might get frustrated if they can't progress because the AI is pursuing optimal response strategies.

I suppose in Arcen form you could make an optional setting for these things but I dunno that's the right answer anyway.

So far I can just have fun and be challenged by playing on the highest difficulty levels so maybe things are fine anyway with chokepoints, who knows.   I just wish the answer to waves at that point could be something other than 'Here's 25 carriers of stuff'

[keith.lamothe]

I'm a turtler, it's what I do.  I'd prefer if the AI didn't dumb itself down for me because turtling is what I have fun with.  I also love crushing enemy fortifications and such, I don't personally see it as a grind.  But I can understand why people might get frustrated if they can't progress because the AI is pursuing optimal response strategies.

I suppose in Arcen form you could make an optional setting for these things but I dunno that's the right answer anyway.

It's certainly something that's possible as an option.  Hybrids in the past have done a pretty good job of doing exactly that.  At least in some capacity.  Do you play with Hybrids on, btw?

[LaughingThesaurus]

Now I'm in total support of an idea that makes the AI smarter. Maybe make it an option just in case my total support completely backfires.

[Hearteater]

Extreme turtling should be limited to AI types that focus on defense.

[Zeyurn]

I'm a turtler, it's what I do.  I'd prefer if the AI didn't dumb itself down for me because turtling is what I have fun with.  I also love crushing enemy fortifications and such, I don't personally see it as a grind.  But I can understand why people might get frustrated if they can't progress because the AI is pursuing optimal response strategies.

I suppose in Arcen form you could make an optional setting for these things but I dunno that's the right answer anyway.

It's certainly something that's possible as an option.  Hybrids in the past have done a pretty good job of doing exactly that.  At least in some capacity.  Do you play with Hybrids on, btw?

We've done games with them on, I.. don't remember what they do except the AI had a lot of them.  I think that was the same game we turned roaming enclaves on and they made it unplayable because whenever we got attacked friendly enclaves would show up and dump 9k younglings out and our computers silently screamed in agony. (We've upgraded computers since then but vowed never to turn roaming enclaves back on)

IIRC it was a Fallen Spire campaign so I'm like 'oh there are things in the way, oops they all died to a billion beam cannons'.  I'll try it without.

[keith.lamothe]

Roaming Enclaves are somewhat less spammy now

And yea, Hybrids (and anything defensive, at all) get overshadowed when FS cap ships get involved.

[orzelek]

Roaming Enclaves are somewhat less spammy now

And yea, Hybrids (and anything defensive, at all) get overshadowed when FS cap ships get involved.

When I was playing with Hybrids and FS recently I thought... that Hybrids should have a large FS detector
They are meant to be the more "intelligent" part of AI. And they will approach large FS fleet directly which gives the perfect firing solution for stationary photon beams.

[keith.lamothe]

Roaming Enclaves are somewhat less spammy now

And yea, Hybrids (and anything defensive, at all) get overshadowed when FS cap ships get involved.

When I was playing with Hybrids and FS recently I thought... that Hybrids should have a large FS detector
They are meant to be the more "intelligent" part of AI. And they will approach large FS fleet directly which gives the perfect firing solution for stationary photon beams.

Well, if they were intelligent, then in the lobby turning on the "Fallen Spire" toggle would automatically disable the "Hybrid Hives" toggles

[Cinth]

By that logic, the AI should be shutting down the game every time I start up

[keith.lamothe]

By that logic, the AI should be shutting down the game every time I start up

It's collecting data.

[Jonz0rz]

K Reductions would be welcome, but one thing I'd really like to see is range increases (to counter the lack of mobility). Especially on the Basic and Flak turrets. I don't think flak needs an explanation. Basic, however, is the "counter" to missile frigates, and they have the same range (less vs mark III or higher frigates), so it's often full fleet of frigates vs 1 turret.

Other random thoughts:
Give Mark III turrets radar dampening immunity?

Grav turrets could probably use a K cost increase, especially Mk.I. It gives a ton of utility for 500.

General turret K costs: 1500 for MK. II? 2500 for MK. III?

I'm skeptical about bigger waves because I don't think they work that well (On a multiplayer 10/10 you can be fighting 30k waves quite regularly and IMO when the wave is just 'more carriers!!' it's kind of annoying although I have no good non-CPU destroying alternative) and I'm skeptical about just using Hunter Killers / world's largest force of Raids because that's just a screw you to a legitimate strategy.

Hmm, maybe after a certain point the AI should get a higher ratio of Starships.

I also love crushing enemy fortifications and such, I don't personally see it as a grind.

I was messing around with various options the other day, and discovered that Beachheads with Cross Planet Waves causes them to spawn on AI planets. They aren't the strongest things in the world, but they have decent damage and range similar to missile turrets. It might be worth a try if you can put up with Cross Planet Waves (I recommend using no-wave warnings with CP waves). Unfortunately, It won't work with turtling AI types, but hey, It's something.

I also second the idea of a more official "ai base builders" option. I like killing bases .

[Zeyurn]

K Reductions would be welcome, but one thing I'd really like to see is range increases (to counter the lack of mobility). Especially on the Basic and Flak turrets. I don't think flak needs an explanation. Basic, however, is the "counter" to missile frigates, and they have the same range (less vs mark III or higher frigates), so it's often full fleet of frigates vs 1 turret.

Other random thoughts:
Give Mark III turrets radar dampening immunity?

Grav turrets could probably use a K cost increase, especially Mk.I. It gives a ton of utility for 500.

General turret K costs: 1500 for MK. II? 2500 for MK. III?

I'm skeptical about bigger waves because I don't think they work that well (On a multiplayer 10/10 you can be fighting 30k waves quite regularly and IMO when the wave is just 'more carriers!!' it's kind of annoying although I have no good non-CPU destroying alternative) and I'm skeptical about just using Hunter Killers / world's largest force of Raids because that's just a screw you to a legitimate strategy.

Hmm, maybe after a certain point the AI should get a higher ratio of Starships.

I also love crushing enemy fortifications and such, I don't personally see it as a grind.

I was messing around with various options the other day, and discovered that Beachheads with Cross Planet Waves causes them to spawn on AI planets. They aren't the strongest things in the world, but they have decent damage and range similar to missile turrets. It might be worth a try if you can put up with Cross Planet Waves (I recommend using no-wave warnings with CP waves). Unfortunately, It won't work with turtling AI types, but hey, It's something.

I also second the idea of a more official "ai base builders" option. I like killing bases .

Back in the really old days the AI did build bases, but it was considered to be a bit much because they would REALLY, REALLY build bases.  I'm not sure I'd really want to go back to those days, but I could probably do with more than they have now without having to play a defensive only AI.

I usually do schizophrenic waves but might be worth trying CPA someday.

[KDR_11k]

Roaming Enclaves are somewhat less spammy now

And yea, Hybrids (and anything defensive, at all) get overshadowed when FS cap ships get involved.

When I was playing with Hybrids and FS recently I thought... that Hybrids should have a large FS detector
They are meant to be the more "intelligent" part of AI. And they will approach large FS fleet directly which gives the perfect firing solution for stationary photon beams.

Well, if they were intelligent, then in the lobby turning on the "Fallen Spire" toggle would automatically disable the "Hybrid Hives" toggles

Or start loading up with implosion artillery modules?

[orzelek]

Roaming Enclaves are somewhat less spammy now

And yea, Hybrids (and anything defensive, at all) get overshadowed when FS cap ships get involved.

When I was playing with Hybrids and FS recently I thought... that Hybrids should have a large FS detector
They are meant to be the more "intelligent" part of AI. And they will approach large FS fleet directly which gives the perfect firing solution for stationary photon beams.

Well, if they were intelligent, then in the lobby turning on the "Fallen Spire" toggle would automatically disable the "Hybrid Hives" toggles

Or start loading up with implosion artillery modules?

That could get scary... until you reach certain critical mass of FS fleet. After that hybrids pop like balloons.