So, turret balance

[keith.lamothe]

Just to be clear: aside from the changes to snipers/spiders, are there any big objections to Hearteater's proposed turret stats?

I'm not wild about the changes to snipers/spiders either.  Though I fully admit that's because they're incredibly useful and I rely on them to be thus   I think their m+c cost balances things somewhat.

[Cinth]

Just to be clear: aside from the changes to snipers/spiders, are there any big objections to Hearteater's proposed turret stats?

I'm not wild about the changes to snipers/spiders either.  Though I fully admit that's because they're incredibly useful and I rely on them to be thus   I think their m+c cost balances things somewhat.

Aside from the cap changes on Missile, Laser, and MLRS, not really.  I'm interested to see if his basics last longer in practice than what we have now.

[Hearteater]

Just to be clear: aside from the changes to snipers/spiders, are there any big objections to Hearteater's proposed turret stats?

I'm not wild about the changes to snipers/spiders either.  Though I fully admit that's because they're incredibly useful and I rely on them to be thus   I think their m+c cost balances things somewhat.

Mark II Snipers + modified Spiders solves that problem, actually giving you 50% more Raid Starship stopping power.  But I can understand why some people are like, "50% more total Sniper Turret DPS?  Extra "Riot" Turrets that reduce engines to 0% 4.6 times faster than current Riot Starships?  Sounds terrible!"

Don't forget the caps are Normal caps for my suggestions!  I would cry if those caps were the high values.

[keith.lamothe]

"50% more total Sniper Turret DPS?  Extra "Riot" Turrets that reduce engines to 0% 4.6 times faster than current Riot Starships?  Sounds terrible!"

Now you understand my job.

[TechSY730]

Yea, I'd say keep the caps the same, but just make each turret fulfill its role similarly to how Hearteater laid it out. It seemed to do a good job of making each turret fit its intended role better than they currently do.

EDIT: Also, why are people saying snipers and spiders are OP? Yea, they have high caps and infinite range, but their base damage and DPS is meh, their bonus damage is pretty darn good (and bonus DPS decent), but not like insane good, and the sniper is capwise very expensive (heck, even half a cap of them is pretty expensive), and the spider turret even more so. And they aren't cheap on energy. Not extremely energy expensive, but enough that you will start to feel it once you really start building them.

So yea, they certainly are easy to use and place, but you do pay for it.

[keith.lamothe]

Was thinking about this part:

I'd probably go with 1k/2k for Mark II/III for everything except the Basic.  I'd leave the Basic as 750/1500, mainly because its really slightly more of a damage-soak.  I might go as high as 1250/2500 for everything besides the Basic.

Out of curiosity, why should mkIII costs be 2x mkII costs, when mkIII is theoretically only 1.5x as strong?  Naturally the 1.5x HP AND 1.5x DPS has a more than 1.5x impact, but is it really 2x in the cases where turrets really matter?

Of course there's always the question of whether "deep" unlocks (going II+III in one type) should cost more or less than "broad" unlocks (going II in two types), which impacts this a bit, but I think ideally that shouldn't have a net impact on K cost.

[Hearteater]

For the K costs I just went off the cuff with what I vaguely recalled the progression being.  I certainly don't have a problem with 1K/1.5K for turrets.

[keith.lamothe]

And the K-cost deflation spiral continues...

[TechSY730]

And the K-cost deflation spiral continues...

Not so sure about that. Didn't K-costs for the starships go UP once they got buffed and the Mk. IV versions came into being? (Yes, those costs were nerfed before all those changes, but then brought back up to a "happier" middle once this all happened)

[keith.lamothe]

And the K-cost deflation spiral continues...

Not so sure about that. Didn't K-costs for the starships go UP once they got buffed and the Mk. IV versions came into being? (Yes, those costs were nerfed before all those changes, but then brought back up to a "happier" middle once this all happened)

I don't have all of them in front of me, but during that the Spire went from 1500/3000/4000 => 500/1000/2500.  And got lowered in stats, but not nearly as much as I'd intended.  They're supposed to be like "half a cap" of comparable fleet ships but I don't think that's at all what happened.

[Cinth]

And the K-cost deflation spiral continues...

Across basic, laser, missile, mlrs, flak, and lightning:

The average K cost for a MK II unlock is  2042 2/3     (12250 K across all 6)
The average K cost for a MK III unlock is 2833 1/3     (17000 K across all 6)

[Hearteater]

K-cost reductions are ok.  That's how we find relative values.  Once everything seems like a pretty good value for its cost, we can revisit initial K and planet K.

[keith.lamothe]

K-cost reductions are ok.  That's how we find relative values.  Once everything seems like a pretty good value for its cost, we can revisit initial K and planet K.

That's true.

One thing, though:

Taking 2500K for 2 "mk-caps" of fleet ship power as the "gold standard" of acceptable K cost (which may not be everyone's position, but I haven't seen strong objections to it) says to me that people are willing to pay 1250 per mk-cap.  Of course with mk(n) being slightly worse than 1/2 a mk(n*2) cap (in theory) it might be closer to 1000 for a mkI cap if they actually had to pay for it, and closer to 4000 for a mkIII cap (despite that being 250 over the "indicated" 3750).

But with the stats you've laid out, the main combat turrets would have roughly 2.5x the HP and actually more than 3x the DPS of fleet ships... wait, were those dps numbers for epic or normal combat style?  I didn't know if the %-vs-triangle you gave was "of" or "above"

[Fluffiest]

If people desperately want player-controlled Guardians, why not a capturable Guardian Assembly Facility? It would work like the ASC and the AdvFac, only it would give you one Guardian type for every turret line you have unlocked up to max level. Human Guardians only function in supply (although you CAN take them out of supply, they can't use their weapons).

I guess that could potentially give you player versions of the Flak, Gravity, Heavy Beam, Laser, Lightning, Artillery (based on Missile Turrets), Spider, Tachyon, and Tractor guardians. There aren't any Guardian equivalents of Basic turrets or MLRS turrets; or of Counter-Dark-Matter, Counter-Missile, or Counter-Sniper.

That pretty much leaves a bunch of Guardians that would either be useless or overpowered in player hands, plus the Vampire Guardian, which I guess could follow on from the Basic turret chain.

[Cinth]

K-cost reductions are ok.  That's how we find relative values.  Once everything seems like a pretty good value for its cost, we can revisit initial K and planet K.

That's true.

One thing, though:

Taking 2500K for 2 "mk-caps" of fleet ship power as the "gold standard" of acceptable K cost (which may not be everyone's position, but I haven't seen strong objections to it) says to me that people are willing to pay 1250 per mk-cap.  Of course with mk(n) being slightly worse than 1/2 a mk(n*2) cap (in theory) it might be closer to 1000 for a mkI cap if they actually had to pay for it, and closer to 4000 for a mkIII cap (despite that being 250 over the "indicated" 3750).

But with the stats you've laid out, the main combat turrets would have roughly 2.5x the HP and actually more than 3x the DPS of fleet ships... wait, were those dps numbers for epic or normal combat style?  I didn't know if the %-vs-triangle you gave was "of" or "above"

I actually unlock higher MK fleet ships last.  Defenses > SS > Fleet  and right now the only SS I spend for are Spire and Zenith.  I'll slog againt the AI with MK Is the whole game if I have to.