So, this whole crystal thing

[LaughingThesaurus]

I kind of like the Cynetic thing, because it isn't capturing OR hacking. It's something different. If I understood correctly, the AI will respond to you gathering it completely separately from regular forms of hacking, and will respond to you gathering it on a per-planet basis rather than a galaxy-wide basis. Not only that, but it does play with an idea that I really like (more of in theory because I don't know how it works in practice). The idea being, the AI can re-establish a base on a captured planet.
What I really don't like would be the idea of keeping both M+C in addition to that idea. The whole reason for the Crystal change is that crystal as a secondary resource kind of sucks. It's not at all different than metal is. Cynetic isn't hacking for knowledge, it's not sitting still passively for free money. It's right in the middle.

[Vyndicu]

Actually, i just paid more attention to faulty logic's suggestion about making it cost less E and didn't notice everyone else's opposite opinion.

Using energy as a cap against spamming per-cap turrets everywhere is good. But then... what is the puspose of crystal mines again? Limiting the speed at which you construct those?
Why should there be a severe limiter on such thing?

Metal limits your rebuilding speed so the AI has a window of opportunity to attack you. But with a luxury bonus resource that wont work. Why would you limit the turret building speed?
I am going to build as many as i can possibly support with my economy anyway, be it limited by energy or the number of planets i have. And i dont want it to take longer than 10-15 minutes.

My normal play style is tend to build up to a full fleetship + starships with a single or possible two energy reactors before starting a campaign. So I often over-drive my economy into the ground and wait a long time before even start on fortification. So energy is usually the upper limit for my offensive until I take about two or three solar systems and I start to run into either crystal or metal as the upper limit especially once I start the spire city hub chase.

So having a crystal limit on income for crystal only is an interesting gamble. Should I fortified my backwater solar systems first? Or horde it all up and risk losing way more build time and metal with my blob fleet attrition. Or do I go all the way to energy limit and risking a full brown out? Even if I look at splitting up metal and crystal I am still limited by build power. How much income can I sustain before losing it? How much can I accumulate crystal while sustaining a hefty loss in metal? It is NOT necessary to have knowledge or energy as the limiting factor.

Of course your mileage may vary on how you like to play. Currently I like to have bit of a challenge so I have 3 exo-waves + spire chase/etc... + neinzul hybrid all on with 7/7 AI. I have manage to get to the fourth city quite a few time but never seem to manage to complete one heh.

Huh I just had a scary thought. We all know Fallen Spire starships cost alot of resource especially a single city hub with full infrastructure. It would be painful to lose the 6 reactor + shipyard + habitation and have to rebuild it plus your fleet/starship/fort/turrets etc... Heck a spire dreadnough cost currently 2 million MC resource ignoring modules. Hmm I will have to be more careful with my spire fleet onward with those changes I approve.

[Vyndicu]

I kind of like the Cynetic thing, because it isn't capturing OR hacking. It's something different. If I understood correctly, the AI will respond to you gathering it completely separately from regular forms of hacking, and will respond to you gathering it on a per-planet basis rather than a galaxy-wide basis. Not only that, but it does play with an idea that I really like (more of in theory because I don't know how it works in practice). The idea being, the AI can re-establish a base on a captured planet.
What I really don't like would be the idea of keeping both M+C in addition to that idea. The whole reason for the Crystal change is that crystal as a secondary resource kind of sucks. It's not at all different than metal is. Cynetic isn't hacking for knowledge, it's not sitting still passively for free money. It's right in the middle.

I think we already have at least 4 way to hack the AI. Spire archive, superterminal, ARS, and knowledge hacking are four I know of. I am not too sure about adding more AI "zombies" spawning as respond to crystal hacking. More to the point why would AI care about you mining or not mining? Well for except for spire asteroid mining as that can be deadly, Penetrator MK 5 anyone? I don't think it is a good idea to make crystal units too powerful on their own like spire mining crafts. Another reason why I am against "AI hacking" style is I don't want crystal mining to influence how I do my other hacking.

I still like my idea of adding another minor faction interaction with the player far better. It still accomplish what you want regard not sitting passively for free money or hacking for crystal.

[Faulty Logic]

Spire Archives aren't hacking.

I dislike the Cynetic thing because it seems unnecessarily complicated.

[chemical_art]

The issue with making mine income being lost permanently is that it'll cause hoarding of crystal. So for the case of the OP, even though turrets caps are per planet, you'll want to save them for chokepoints...which kinda defeats the purpose. Doubly so since then the only way to ensure crystal income is to have an impenetrable chokepoint...which again feels to defeat the purpose.

As for waiting for netflix...if crystal is only used for defenses, you are essentially waiting to max your defenses before moving on...in the long term that is silly. Offenses benefit from it sometimes because offenses are infrequent and if successful isn't needed for the current objective, while defense is a constant battle. CPA's will kill you in the super long term, and a super defense doesn't win games. Besides, the current economy already allows this because of Mercs...yet I don't see frequently that mercs slow the game down as you wait for netflix to build a cap of them.

[Cyborg]

Spire Archives aren't hacking.

I dislike the Cynetic thing because it seems unnecessarily complicated.

Agreed.

[Vyndicu]

I believe Spire archieve get treated as hacking because it DOES provoke a respond if not exact same as knowledge hacking. You have to hold it for xzy min to unlock full knowledge otherwise you risk lot of AIP bump. In about few time I actually manage to see them. I often see them together in the same solar system. So usually it is very risky for me to try to hold both in the same solar system so far away from my chokehold with 3 exo-waves. So as a result I just treat them as normal hacking because it is very hard to hold those solar systems in my normal play style.

Chemical_art: Which is why I like mining being forced to shutdown for a timed period which force you to seek an alternative crystal source. Otherwise you risk unleashing a swarm of ship that your chokehold can't handle FROM the inside of your backwater solar systems. Image this you are playing on spoke with 20 controlled solar systems behind a single chokehold. If you hold crystal mine up long enough to spawn 10k ships that the local crystal mine defense can't handle then you risk a full blownout plus facing TWO way wars on top of losing energy and metal mines left and right. You do not want that to happens which is all the more reason why I like my idea of soft forcing crystal mine shutdown before it get out of control.

Grant in my version static crystal mine are nonvolatile source of income as long you hold the solar system intact and don't have a huge threat fleet running freely through your own backyard. So technically you could build TWO chokehold but that would weaken your main AI chokehold. Now do you see why I like my idea better? It force you to sacrifice some defense for a better offensive or vice versa depending on how long and often you plan to keep crystal mine up.

[Cinth]

I believe Spire archieve get treated as hacking because it DOES provoke a respond if not exact same as knowledge hacking. You have to hold it for xzy min to unlock full knowledge otherwise you risk lot of AIP bump. In about few time I actually manage to see them. I often see them together in the same solar system. So usually it is very risky for me to try to hold both in the same solar system so far away from my chokehold with 3 exo-waves. So as a result I just treat them as normal hacking because it is very hard to hold those solar systems in my normal play style.

Still not a hack.  Hard to hold doesn't equate a hack.

Chemical_art: Which is why I like mining being forced to shutdown for a timed period which force you to seek an alternative crystal source. Otherwise you risk unleashing a swarm of ship that your chokehold can't handle FROM the inside of your backwater solar systems. Image this you are playing on spoke with 20 controlled solar systems behind a single chokehold. If you hold crystal mine up long enough to spawn 10k ships that the local crystal mine defense can't handle then you risk a full blownout plus facing TWO way wars on top of losing energy and metal mines left and right. You do not want that to happens which is all the more reason why I like my idea of soft forcing crystal mine shutdown before it get out of control.

Grant in my version static crystal mine are nonvolatile source of income as long you hold the solar system intact and don't have a huge threat fleet running freely through your own backyard. So technically you could build TWO chokehold but that would weaken your main AI chokehold. Now do you see why I like my idea better? It force you to sacrifice some defense for a better offensive or vice versa depending on how long and often you plan to keep crystal mine up.

This sounds a lot like hacking to me.

@_K_: I responded to point 5 on Keith's list. 150-200% of the normal energy cost. 
 
I thought the limiters were crystal availability and planetary caps.  Energy cost was a deterrent to spam.  Also, I thought the main goal was more utility over just more offensive capability.  Being able to defend those out of the way places a little better or help set up beachheads (offensive use of defensive assets ). 

[barryvm]

It would also be interesting if the AI would be able to commandeer the crystal operation when the player loses them and use it for offensive purposes.
Defensive setups would be either overrun by the player's fleet or left alone being inconsequential.
If the AI would be able to, for example, build a special type of guard post or support base on the abandoned crystal mine and then launch attacks from there, this would be interesting.
Neutral factions or hybrids could also use these "opportunities" to bolster their offensive capacity and launch attacks from them.

[Vyndicu]

This sounds a lot like hacking to me.

@_K_: I responded to point 5 on Keith's list. 150-200% of the normal energy cost. 
 
I thought the limiters were crystal availability and planetary caps.  Energy cost was a deterrent to spam.  Also, I thought the main goal was more utility over just more offensive capability.  Being able to defend those out of the way places a little better or help set up beachheads (offensive use of defensive assets ).

It is not hacking if AI is not the responder. How do you hack neinzul preservation? Oh wait that sound so wrong in a bad way.

The mechanics for spawning is same as hacking except FOR ONE critical fact. You can stop hack/mine crystal and reset to zero respond after an extend cool off period. I think it is a good better medium ground I can think of between sitting on a mountain vs flat out hacking.

[keith.lamothe]

On the Cynetic thing, it is interesting but I would rather aim for simpler than that for now.  Having the new resource antagonize the AI if you use it is theoretically ok, but there's a few too many "joints" in the proposed "limb"; or at least more than there seems to be any real need for. 

Complexity aside, I'm concerned that a direct AI response to your using the resource gets more into the "treadmill" feeling: obviously there has to be a counterbalance to everything, but if it's a "step on the rake, immediately get hit in the face" kind of counterbalance... well, that's not usually much fun.  Kind of like how golems were a long time ago where bringing one to an AI planet would cause it to immediately spawn a ton of free ships there to offset your local advantage.

The growing-response-over-time thing would be less immediate, but the player's perception (at least if they know the rules) is that they're immediately incurring a penalty.

All that said, I think I'd be in favor of something where a destroyed crystal mine would reset to usable-by-you after an hour or two, but until it resets it increased AI wave/cpa/exo/etc size by 5% or whatever.  But along with this rather than making the mapgen-seeded crystal source a capturable "mine" it would just be a neutral invincible thing that doesn't produce anything on its own but you can build a "crystal mine" within a certain distance of it.  The destruction of that mine is what would trigger the temporary AI boost.

Anyway, somewhat more complex than I'd prefer, but perhaps with refinement it'd be worth it and would add a better counterbalance to the new opportunities.


My main concern with my proposal at the beginning of this thread, and some have mentioned it here, is that I don't see how it would avoid being a "capture one crystal source at low AIP, watch netflix until you hit the crystal cap, commence actual playing" situation.  Even if there were a step-on-rake counterbalance to harvesting (which would be less than ideal anyway) it would just become a matter of computing the ideal quantity of netflix to apply

That leads me more in the direction of it being a "population" resource like energy where it's not harvested at all and thus can't be hoarded via netflix, or it being an "exhaustible" resource like knowledge where you can harvest it all pretty quickly but then it's gone... but I don't want to go either of those routes, as we already have resources that do those things.  Making it energy-like would be tolerable to me, but I'm hoping there's a better way.

[Vyndicu]

I still think having a minor faction respond in a "hacking" fashion doesn't fall into either "while netflix is downloading" or "more AI treadmill stuff" category.

[Cinth]

This sounds a lot like hacking to me.

It is not hacking if AI is not the responder. How do you hack neinzul preservation? Oh wait that sound so wrong in a bad way.

The mechanics for spawning is same as hacking except FOR ONE critical fact. You can stop hack/mine crystal and reset to zero respond after an extend cool off period. I think it is a good better medium ground I can think of between sitting on a mountain vs flat out hacking.

Still sounds like hacking to me....

Preservation Wardens are a minor faction that needs to be enabled. 

Looks like you want to add another minor faction that involves the crystals.  That could work, but I don't think I would want a response that resembles the AI hacking response.

@ Keith: I would be cool with a small flat AI bonus strength per mine and the bonus strength when it gets popped.  I kinda like the FS shipyard mechanic where the more yards you have the more you can build (type wise not just caps).  Something along the lines of moving to unlock a small mobile fleet or a big nasty.
You get the AIP penalty if you want to unlock the shiny stuff. 

[keith.lamothe]

@ Keith: I would be cool with a small flat AI bonus strength per mine and the bonus strength when it gets popped.  I kinda like the FS shipyard mechanic where the more yards you have the more you can build (type wise not just caps).  Something along the lines of moving to unlock a small mobile fleet or a big nasty.
You get the AIP penalty if you want to unlock the shiny stuff.

Bear in mind that taking the planet the crystal source is on already costs AIP.

[chemical_art]

@ Keith: I would be cool with a small flat AI bonus strength per mine and the bonus strength when it gets popped.  I kinda like the FS shipyard mechanic where the more yards you have the more you can build (type wise not just caps).  Something along the lines of moving to unlock a small mobile fleet or a big nasty.

This idea seems best. If you make mines permanently gone or stay, you will have different people who will netflix. The only solution is some sort of cap limitter, whether it be hard via "you can only build X per Y mines" or soft via energy.