So, this whole crystal thing

[Cyborg]

Like.

This is a much better approach. A new game within a game.

[Kahuna]

These crystal mines shouldn't be as hard to defend as fabricators etc. Most of the time Fabricators are in places where they're half impossible to defend vs CPAs and Exos (again in a real map (simple, realistic)). Half impossible because I'd have to place about 30% of my defenses on that planet keep it safe. If the fabricator gets destroyed at any point in the game capturing that planet has become a waste of time and all the resources used to keeping that planet safe have gone down the drain. Thus losing the fabricator is not an option.

In short: crystal mines should not be as rare and PITA to defend as Fabricators.

And yes I do like this idea.

[TIE Viper]

Unless I mistook the intention, I'm pretty sure they are going to be fairly common (significantly more so than fabs since they are giving us planet caps of a few special turrets.)

Hey Keith, are they going to have the 'away from everything else on planet' mechanic that the fabs and factories, etc have?

[chemical_art]

Generally cool.

An idea to appeal to both the "nothing is lost forever" and "nothing stays forever" crowd.

1) Crystal mines can be destroyed, but are tough. They should be able to benefit from exo-shields as well.

2) If destroyed, the crystal mine give 10% of its income.

3) The human command station gets a single crystal mine. It can be destroyed, but it is located right next to the command station and its key structures so its destruction tends to be game over anyway.

Since these units are capped by per planet, you don't have to worry too much about too much massive stockpiling.

[Cyborg]

An idea to appeal to both the "nothing is lost forever" and "nothing stays forever" crowd.

We already have this "nothing stays forever" mechanic on certain modifiers, like colony rebellions. If we add *new* mechanics, I find it hard to mount a vigorous opposition, especially if it's optional and not essential to winning. I like to take my time when I play, go wherever I feel like going, and do whatever I feel like doing… that means certain modifiers never get turned on.

And that's okay.

Edit: I thought I should add, this is one of the charming characteristics of AI War. Choose your own adventure, in the style that works for your personality. All of the great forum debates always seem to show up when things are forced rather than toggled. Even implicitly, like the great energy debates we used to have, where energy micromanagement felt forced, especially when resources took so long to get that we were watching movies to pass the time between battles!

[Wingflier]

I like this idea.  And since it's an optional mechanic (as in, you could win the entire game without ever using the new "resource"), I can't see any reason why it should be an indestructable resource.  In other words, you should have to protect it...

The problem is that if you make it an infinite, undestroyable resource as people are asking, all you're really doing is making the player more powerful, without any real downside. That is unless the AI can use these re-captured "crystal extractors" to start fortifying your lost planets or something, which would be absolutely hilarious and something we've all been wanting for a long time.

But even then, unless the AI began fortifying your lost planets to like MKIV Planet specifications, you could just come in and wipe out whatever they had built probably relatively quickly with your main force.

All-in-all I like it and it has a lot of potential, but I don't want to just see more costless power creep in the player's hands. I'd like to see the AI somehow benefit from this as well.

edit: What if we just make this a finite resource like knowledge? You protect the extractor(s) long enough, then it runs out. That way you can only stockpile so much of it up unless you take more planets with it.

Using something like this you could add MEGA-rewards like a special Starship or something if you had saved up a TON of it.

[Faulty Logic]

All-in-all I like it and it has a lot of potential, but I don't want to just see more costless power creep in the player's hands. I'd like to see the AI somehow benefit from this as well.

I definitely agree.

I would suggest something like the FactIV/ASC cost crystal to run, but that runs counter to the "you can ignore it if you want" philosophy we have going for crystal.

I'm thinking something along the lines of AI miners. Think every crystal mine you capture spawns a mining golem (without the nuke problem) for the AI, and it can use its new toy however it wants (threatfleet behaviour).

edit: What if we just make this a finite resource like knowledge? You protect the extractor(s) long enough, then it runs out. That way you can only stockpile so much of it up unless you take more planets with it.

I don't like that solution.

[Kahuna]

There could be AI Mining Stations that would spawn an AI Miner (not same as Mining Golem) when destroyed. These stations would be built on crystal asteroids that would be seeded when the map is generated. A Mining Station would look like an asteroid with structures built around it kinda like a Guard Post. When the structures (graphics (not actual buildings)) around the asteroid are destroyed the drill (AI Miner) would be released (spawned).. and it would be pissed off! And shoot drilling beams and lasers! (Zenith Beam Ship thingy beam?)

[Eternaly_Lost]

Generally cool.

An idea to appeal to both the "nothing is lost forever" and "nothing stays forever" crowd.

1) Crystal mines can be destroyed, but are tough. They should be able to benefit from exo-shields as well.

2) If destroyed, the crystal mine give 10% of its income.

3) The human command station gets a single crystal mine. It can be destroyed, but it is located right next to the command station and its key structures so its destruction tends to be game over anyway.

Since these units are capped by per planet, you don't have to worry too much about too much massive stockpiling.

The issue with 10% of income, is that you will likely end up with cases where the player starts the game, loads up Hulu or Netflicks well they wait the 10x longer it takes to get the crystal, then does stuff. I would much rather see it disabled (or maybe reduced) for a short time (clearing the mines kind of thing) then return at normal rate, then making it for the rest of the game. I already watch a lot of Hulu well I wait for my Spire fleet to rebuild, I don't want to have to watch even more for different reasons.

[Wingflier]

Okay, here is my new suggestion for how the new "Crystal" mechanic should work.

Instead of calling it Crystal, the new resource is instead Captured AI Technology called Cynetic. Cynetic is drawn by nodes throughout the galaxy (on specific planets) directly from the AI Hive Mind, so accessing this sacred technology makes the AI VERY angry.

Cynetic is an indestructible, infinite resource, but it harvests very slowly. In addition, the longer you harvest said resource, the more dangerous the AI's response gets on that planet.  For that reason, the player has the option of ignoring the resource entirely (and not harvesting it), as to not unnecessarily incite the AI's wrath.

To use this resource, there are special capturable "Cynetic Fabs" and "Cynetic Builders" scattered across the galaxy.  The Cynetic Builder is like the one Keith talked about, that gives you a small supply of turrets, shields, and such, and can build things out of supply.  The Cynetic Fabs are just like regular Fabs, so they give a random MKV Fleet or Starship, but they use Cynetic Research instead of M+C.

As I mentioned before, the AI's response to this "Cynetic Resource Hacking" operates on a planet by planet basis.  The more Cynetic you have harvested from a specific planet, and the higher your AIP, the more severe the response will be.

Here is how the punishment works:

1) The AI is more likely to attack planets which are harvesting Cynetic.
2) When the AI destroys the Orbital Command Station on a planet that has been harvesting Cynetic, it begins to build its own "Stronghold" on that planet, to prevent you from recapturing it and continuing to harvest this secret resource.
3) The Battlements it will build on a neutral planet (that was harvesting Cynetic) are based on how much Cynetic you harvested, and how high your AIP is.  If both of those are high, you'll be in for a pretty bad time.

There are different "categories" of the AI Centerpiece Stronghold Structure it builds on an ex-allied planet.  These get progressively nastier.

A) "Normal" Stronghold - As the name says, this is nothing too special. It's just the regular Stronghold type that the AI builds one "low-threat" Cynetic-harvested planets.
B) "Rally" Stronghold - Like the Normal Stronghold, but also continual reinforces the planet with new units every few seconds until destroyed. Has the potential of making a massive fleet outside the player's base.
C) "Attrition" Stronghold - Like the name says, attritions every enemy ship on the planet, making it tough to take down.
D) "Cloaked" Stronghold - Cloaks every enemy ship on the planet, meaning you have to somehow destroy it before you can even start firing on every other threat.
E) "Revenge" Stronghold - Begins building a Nuke to use on a nearby player planet unless destroyed in time.

These are just some ideas of the types of Strongholds the AI may build.

In addition to the "Centerpiece" Stronghold building, the AI will also begin to build "Guard Posts" just as if it were a regular planet. These Guard Posts will count as supply, and AI reinforcements can spawn here. Unlike regular AI planets however, Stronghold planets will continue to build Guard Posts until the player comes and wipes it out. "Stronghold" Planets can also spawn Guardians as well. 

As I said before, the "pain" inflicted on the player in these scenarios is completely OPTIONAL. If they choose to simply not harvest Cynetic, the AI will not respond with this kind of tactic. However, should the player CHOOSE to use this resource to bolster his forces, he better protect his planets damn well

[Aklyon]

So, sorta like a much more gradual version of hacking the AI directly?

[_K_]

Alright, my question is:

How tedious is it going to be to put a local cap of those crystal-turrets on each of my 20 planets?
Because i am going to be doing that every time in every single game.


Here is my suggestion:

Instead of using crystals as a payment method, use them as a cap.

Every cache increases your special turret cap by a small amount, forever. Every crystal mine you control increases it substantially. If you lose a planet and go over the cap, the turrets turn off as if they had no power.
The turrets have power cost, so if you decide to focus heavily on maximising your cap, you cannot turn every planet into a fortress due to the energy limit.


Also, I see people talking about downsides... well if we are giving the player more turrets... how about we nerf the regular turret caps? As result, instead of just a fixed cap, you get a fixed base cap + variable per-planet bonus cap. Some turrets could rely heavily on base cap (basic turret for example), while some coule be mostly variable per-planet cap (like mini-forts)

[Vyndicu]

I think you misunderstood K. Energy requirement will be 5x time worse. So If a mini-fortress cost 9k energy before then it would cost 45k energy + crystal. Image how hard it would be to power up TWO mini-fortress each solar system. I think you are over-reacting a quite bit.


We already have tons of AI hacking. I don't want to tied hacking respond together with crystal mining respond. We would have the same situation where people would NOT blow up data center because they have to hack something else before blowing it up.


Which is why I suggested either neinzul or mining golem get involved somehow in a hostile way. It make sense for them because the former dislike to see human exploiting the galaxy mineral deposits let alone crystal. The later might not want to see human stealing crystals before the mining golem get to mine it.


@Crystal mine with reduced income- I am not sure that this is a good idea. Because the crystal mine get destroy once (Fabricator in a terrible defending position anyone?) that the player will still not have any motive to defend it more afterward than beforehand.

I like the temporarily disabled the mine until a certain period of time has pass by much more. Why? At least the mine can resume mining at the previous income it had before, you would also recieve less crystal over time because it is not working due to any number of reasons, and you would want to defend it for xyz mins it is active and at the same time defend the location from minor factions. I like this way better due to not just for the nonvolatile crystal income but to prevent a minor faction respond from getting out of control. Dark Spire 50k swarm anyone?

[_K_]

I think you misunderstood K. Energy requirement will be 5x time worse.

Actually, i just paid more attention to faulty logic's suggestion about making it cost less E and didn't notice everyone else's opposite opinion.

Using energy as a cap against spamming per-cap turrets everywhere is good. But then... what is the puspose of crystal mines again? Limiting the speed at which you construct those?
Why should there be a severe limiter on such thing?

Metal limits your rebuilding speed so the AI has a window of opportunity to attack you. But with a luxury bonus resource that wont work. Why would you limit the turret building speed?
I am going to build as many as i can possibly support with my economy anyway, be it limited by energy or the number of planets i have. And i dont want it to take longer than 10-15 minutes.

[chemical_art]

I will do a more detailed cross analysis later. but for now with the current changes of crystal being used for turrets only having the research the limit head either through lose my mind permanently or through being it by finite well resorts and lots of hoarding. since the crystal at self is safe from attack I see no reason why I should I store is much as I can and only use it for my truck point. this front counter to the whole point of having a cap her planet bases. I know it's a broken record but having done babe and destructible will make a choke point even more desirable.

 Add to those who are watching Hulu you can already do that with metal how is really different. its not even like offense to watch Hulu to build more defense is when does very defensive die over time.