Author Topic: So, this whole crystal thing  (Read 35831 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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So, this whole crystal thing
« on: March 31, 2013, 02:09:13 am »
Was working on some of the top items in the mantis voting this last week and one of them stuck out at me as something we could do to use a new crystal mechanic.  So I'm just tossing this out here to see what you think.  If this one goes over like a ton of bricks (like my last something-different-we-could-do-with-crystal idea), that's totally fine with me, we'll just move on ;)

Anyway:

Basically take the "Military Builder" idea but go a bit more whole-hog:

1) Add a "Military Builder" unit that's similar to the Mobile Builder (edit: to be clear, this would not cost knowledge to unlock) but:
-- Is pretty durable, possibly even with cloaking.
-- Can function outside supply.
-- Has an additional build-menu tab for a new category of stuff.

2) That new category of stuff the Military Builder could build would include:
-- New versions of most (possibly all) the normal turret types that would be similar to the normal turrets except:
--- Have fairly low caps (say 10% of a normal turret cap), but those caps are per-planet like the miniforts'.
--- Can be built and can function outside supply.
--- Build pretty quickly.
--- Are unlocked along with their normal turret equivalent (so mkI laser turrets would have both the normal and the per-planet variety unlocked from the start, and researching the mkII version would give you the mkII of both, etc)
-- Similiarly done (per-planet-cap, outside-supply) new versions of the normal forcefield generators and possibly a few other things.  Maybe even all-up forts, though I'm not so sure about that.

3) As discussed before, since m+c is functionally a single resource at this point (crystal as a distinct thing is not an irrelevant mechanic, but it is definitely a weak mechanic), just combine all previously existing forms of metal and crystal income and expenditure into just metal.  But leave the concept of crystal in existence (at this point there'd be nothing in the game at all that would either give you crystal or cost crystal, however).

4) Similar to what I've discussed before, add new "crystal caches" (basically crystal-only distribution nodes that don't cost AIP) and "crystal mines" (take-and-hold ongoing-crystal-producers, either lost forever or lost for X hours if destroyed, kinda depends on what folks are willing to deal with) into the initial map seeding.  Unlike my previous proposal I think it'd be better to not have any crystal income via the home command station (or any other command station) since we wouldn't be making crystal a requirement for any unit you can build in the current version.

5) Make all those new per-planet-cap + works-outside-supply toys cost crystal instead of metal.  Probably also make them relatively energy-expensive to keep you from filling their caps on every single planet.


In short: this wouldn't take away anything you can do now, but it would give you some new toys to play with if you're willing to play this proposed "new crystal game" to pay for them.  It even gives you a bit more cap you can throw onto your chokepoints, but it gives a much higher buff to other forms of defense.  Which is good, because you'd need it to defend those mines if you weren't going to just get by on what the caches give.

The new crystal resource could also be used for some special expansion stuff or whatever later if it made sense.


So, thoughts?  Feel free to just feed this idea into the chipper shredder if you like, but I figured it could be pretty cool :)
« Last Edit: March 31, 2013, 02:14:41 am by keith.lamothe »
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Offline Cinth

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2013, 02:26:56 am »
I can see some areas where I would use "outside-of-supply" turrets and stuff. Namely helping a hack of any sort. 

On #5, I could see 150-200% E costs compared to the normal version and I would be leery of giving me even MOAR fortresses ;)
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2013, 02:27:57 am »
and I would be leery of giving me even MOAR fortresses ;)
Yes.  I know.  Believe me.  I know.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2013, 02:32:48 am »
and I would be leery of giving me even MOAR fortresses ;)
Yes.  I know.  Believe me.  I know.

Lol.

I'd like to test it out for sure :)  If crystal is fairly renewable, making beachheads in depth would be an interesting tactic for attritioning Exo waves. 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2013, 02:36:12 am »
I'd like to test it out for sure :)  If crystal is fairly renewable, making beachheads in depth would be an interesting tactic for attritioning Exo waves.
The idea would be for it to be renewable in that it's not like Knowledge where you have a strictly limited amount, but it wouldn't be nearly as easily/certainly renewable like Metal.  Trying for a bit of a middle ground there.  The advantage over making it easy-to-get is that then the toys it gives can thus have more utility (and going more for utility than sheer power would be more interesting, I think, though some of the idea here is just getting some stationary firepower where you need it).
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2013, 02:42:43 am »
Quote
Probably also make them relatively energy-expensive to keep you from filling their caps on every single planet.
I would say make them energy-free. They should be restricted by crystal, and if you win the crystal game, you should be rewarded.

Also add some mobile component, like an extra .2 cap of fleetships, also costing crystal. This to avoid the no-offense no-value syndrome that inspired the neinzul drones.

 
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2013, 02:50:53 am »
Quote
Probably also make them relatively energy-expensive to keep you from filling their caps on every single planet.
I would say make them energy-free. They should be restricted by crystal, and if you win the crystal game, you should be rewarded.
The crystal costs would have to be pretty stiff, but potentially, yea.

Quote
Also add some mobile component, like an extra .2 cap of fleetships, also costing crystal. This to avoid the no-offense no-value syndrome that inspired the neinzul drones.
Well, that's part of the point of this: they aren't no-offense.  You could drop forcefields and turrets right in the middle of an assault on an AI planet, without pulling from your defenses.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2013, 02:54:49 am »
Quote
Probably also make them relatively energy-expensive to keep you from filling their caps on every single planet.
I would say make them energy-free. They should be restricted by crystal, and if you win the crystal game, you should be rewarded.
The crystal costs would have to be pretty stiff, but potentially, yea.


And then, durable.  If it feels like golems or even spirecraft (to an extent that they are limited in number of asteroids) then I know I would be less willing to use them offensively.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Vyndicu

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2013, 03:18:49 am »
I was reading on the crystal idea and so far I am liking it.

I was thinking it would be boring to add "another exo-wave" to add more pressure when the player is trying to bite more than he can chew. So instead perhaps have a new minor faction or use one of the current existing faction (Golem miner/Neinzul Preservation Warden  comes to mind here) put pressure on the player to temporarily stop mining crystal or risk an escalation of hostiles. Kind of similar to how AI hacking works like now except spawn minor faction in an increase bigger waves the longer you try to mine crystal.

What you guy think? You might risk losing all your investment into crystal and your normal chokehold if you try to mine too much. But it force you to stop mine proportal to how long you have been mining. So if you mined for 15 min then you have to wait 30 min then you mine again after 30 cooldown mins for one hour and you risk restart the spawn at the previous strength at one hour if you don't wait 2 hours.

I would like some feedback. What do you like? What do you don't like?

Offline orzelek

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2013, 06:36:34 am »
I like the idea very much :)
Small note - make sure that some of crystal sources are not permanently removable.
I know that permanent loss gives thrill to some of players but with exos all around the place you can't guarantee that mine X will survive and you will lose possibility to use the new toys.
And that would be a bit.. nasty - some drawbacks (need to go and hunt crystal mines and defend them or they go dormant for 1-2 hours or you need command center on planet - maybe special one even) are ok - but losing ability to use new stuff would be in frustrating area and would detract from fun.

Offline TIE Viper

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2013, 08:34:47 am »
I like what I'm hearing so far.  Also, I like the going dormant for a couple of hours or so if 'destroyed'.  It's like you have to clear all the rubble and debris out of your mine from the attack to get at the crystals again.  And it would definitely give a distinct feel because it would be the only thing that is lose-able but you get it back after a while.
May the Force be with you.

And the Triforce too.  :D

Offline Aklyon

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2013, 08:46:04 am »
I like this sort of idea as well, the whole 'mine is temporarily lost while we clean up the ruins of the last excavation' thing.

Also, obvious question: Metal costs for things in general is going to go up, right?

Offline orzelek

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2013, 09:16:17 am »
Metal cost would be equal to current metal+crystal and all current deposits would be metal.
It should balance out to more or less same like it's now economically.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2013, 09:25:10 am »
Also, obvious question: Metal costs for things in general is going to go up, right?
In effect, yes, but in practice I'm going to need to divide all the "new metal" income and expenditure by 2 so that it all still fits in 6 digits :)

But yes, to answer the heart of the question: the current balance of how much currently-available things cost will not be affected.
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Offline Diazo

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2013, 10:06:08 am »
Alright, my thoughts after 5 seconds, expect more details or a different opinion from me later.

1) Overall I like the idea.

2) Should not have any Sniper type stuff available to it, otherwise this military builder could clear AI systems all on it's own.

3) To balance things, 'crystal veins' should have a finite amount of crystal when not controlled by the AI and then once the system is captured, you can build a 'crystal mine' that gets you the infinite crystal, probably at a slowish rate. To get the 'loss means something' effect, you can only build a crystal mine once, if the AI destroys it, it becomes a 'destroyed crystal mine' that still give infinite income, but only 10% of the income an intact crystal mine gives you.

4) Should these get the "Can not be repaired" flag? Even at only 10% caps you could make a beachhead that nothing except a high-mark AI planet with lots of ships on it could crack. If they are not repairable then that turns this from permanent outpost that you can just forget about into a short-term tactical thing that you build for a specific purpose?

That's all for now.

D.