Author Topic: So, this whole crystal thing  (Read 35825 times)

Offline Cinth

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #240 on: April 09, 2013, 12:32:45 am »
I came up with something that was definitely stronger than what Keith gave us.  It put individual node (M or C) at 3 per planet.

If we can look at the merits (I used the harvesting numbers we have now) and faults in what I have, I'll share it.  I'd rather take something with numbers and have the community work on it to make it better (satisfies most concerns) while being able to give crystal some meaning outside of just being a number.

I want to keep the scope of the discussion on this aspect and only this aspect.  There is more to the over all scheme of this change but lets focus on one aspect at a time :)

Also guys, lets keep it civil.  We play the same game in different ways and we can just agree to disagree on somethings, but we can keep it civil.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 12:35:11 am by Cinth »
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #241 on: April 09, 2013, 12:43:45 am »
Well that got a bit ugly for a moment... Since it is up there, and I am actually a newish player myself I will give my 2 bits on CSGs. I can see the allure. They add a depth to the game in strategy. By making you do things you might never have wanted to do. Depending on what you like they can be both fun, and !FUN!. You have to solve this extra puzzle and it gives the strategist types something more to play with. However I can see the downsides as well. It is HARD railroading. And a lot of people CAN NOT STAND THAT. Railroading, even landholding style hard type, can be useful. And when well done can be rather unobtrusive. But the CSGs are NOT well done. They were, from what I have gathered, a reaction from the original developer to ultra-low AIP games deep-striking the AI HWs without ever being threatened by the AI in a real way. In short, Chris went "Stop breaking my game you bastards! It's pissing me off!" and threw deliberate roadblocks to prevent it. Harsh words maybe, but from the looks of it, probably true.  They were tossed in without any kind of testing or discussion, and are rather clunky and ill designed IMO

Now personally, I don't like them. I tend to play on the "bull**** maps", if I recall the phrase correctly, and sometimes the only way to get to a portion of the galaxy, for things I might very well need, is to go THROUGH a AI HW. Trust me, the AIP gain (but now it is AIP Floor gain so maybe not so bad now) from neutering the place is MUCH preferable to having core posts in your way that you CANT deal with. But part of what makes this game SOOO good is the fact that despite not being "Mod Friendly", it can be VERY adaptable. There are ways to make the game to conform to what you want it to be, within reason. You can have the same game appeal to both groups, and as well it is very hard to have the exact same game twice, even when trying.

Now, on to economy and crystal. I agree that crystal is a rather weak mechanic right now, but I also think that simply removing conversion between M & C and rebalancing the economy around that is NOT the right move. I build the big things, starships, golems, spirecraft, and FS. And while there are no hard numbers right now, just going from what I have read, and guessed at, this is going to make doing that a bit harder on me. I play at 300% to AVOID economy issues and any PSP/PS2 time (I don't have netflix, too broke) while I wait for things to (re)build. I want the fun (and the !FUN!) to start fast and stay going for as long as possible. (Which is funny because I'm actually kinda a slow player, still learning higher level strats)

Personally I think removing crystal entirely is a better idea. The split is mostly 50/50 on the majority of things, and when it is not is also mostly arbitrary. One would think that all the alien stuff, most especially Spire anything, would be 70% or more crystal, while Human based tech runs 70% or more metal. Why are starships so different from fleetships rule of near 50/50, if they are supposed to function similarly to them, but with less DPS and more HP? The splits that are not nearly 50/50 rarely make sense for any given reason I can think of. And for the ones where it is nearly at or at 50/50, the split has no meaning. There is no added depth at all.

Final bit. While I am sure the current idea you have would be easier to code, perhaps another way to factor the Simple Economy toggle could be used. Rather than just merging them together and getting needlessly large numbers, do the following. Use ( M + C ) / 2 for all costs. Add them together, and then divide that result by 2. All income sources that produce both M and C do so in equal amounts, so you can just drop C out of them and would still be just as effective. For harvesters, divide their income by 2. Since the number of them has not changed, and all of them are now just metal, your income shouldn't change either. As you now have 2x the number of metal harvesters, you can get by with 1/2 the income from them. This would keep the numbers on costs from getting too pointlessly high (especially on high cost items like golems, trader toys, and FS) while at the same time give a new starting point from which to balance the cost of things from.

After all that, you could work out something NEW to use crystal for. Because while the idea of making Metal and Crystal work similar to something like Starcraft Minerals and Gas (where low tech things only cost minerals, and as the tech level goes up things cost more and more gas) sounds like a good idea on paper, I don't personally feel that it works for core game. Right now the key costs of higher and better tech are

A} Resources. Higher marks cost more of BOTH M+C. Bigger things cost even more so, but it is both M+C is nearly every case. And as stated, most things are nearly 50/50 or have a split that makes no sense to have. Meaning, IMO, you could get rid of either M or C and still have the same costs.
B} Knowledge. You need to pay K costs for the vast majority of tech improvements. And given that in most cases the things that don't just give you free power also give the AI more ways to kill you, you still need to spend K to survive long enough to keep/acquire the better toys.
C} Energy. This is your supply cap. Not as strong as the raw ship caps, but not ignorable either unless you have more planets, (which costs either AIP or having extra HWs) or you have an economy that can support multiple converters without breaking. Which means you spent a lot of K on it or have a lot of planets.

Given the 3 things above, do we really need to add/change it to have crystal work like gas? Starcraft has an entirely different econ system that it is designed around. I see no reason to take a working system (crystal may be removable but it still works) and turn it into something else entirely. You would need to do a LOT more rebalancing to get that to work than if you just removed C from the equation. Because you still have the A from above, in the form of M. You could allow C to be worked into new and more interesting things, and even have C worked into certain minor factions like Golems. Maybe they don't self attrition but rather cost so much crystal to get up and running again but can NOT be repaired unless you have that much crystal income/sources/ect. Spirecraft also need to be looked at, and crystal could be integrated into them as well. Still takes full asteroids to build them, but now costs crystal rather than metal to repair/build any of them. You would also likely need to give crystal some way to work in the core game as well, without options, but I am out of ideas for that right now.

COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC IGNORE THE STUFF BELOW IF YOU DESIRE

I normally don't talk much about the balance of the game economy wise, since, as I have said before, I out right cheat. 300% Economy and a starting K of 250k. But in this case, I felt a little compelled to say something. This is after all a major change, and even for me it will have a big impact on how I play and what I do. On the cheat issue, more than a few times I have thought to make an AAR about my games, but always refrained from doing so for the simple grounds that I am cheating. Would there be any thing against the rules about posting one? And if not, would anyone even care? Or, as I have feared, would the reactions be "Meh, you're a cheater so I am going to either ignore you or criticize you  for not playing fairly" ?

Offline Kahuna

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #242 on: April 09, 2013, 12:46:15 am »
When I first started playing AI War I didn't even try the tutorial. I didn't read the Wiki or anything. I just pretty much turned on all the minor factions and started playing. CSGs were enabled too. CSGs helped me to decide what to do next. They were a good goal to work towards to.

Basically.. tooltips were my tutorial and CSGs helped me to decide what to do next.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Cinth

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #243 on: April 09, 2013, 12:52:59 am »
That didn't take long to get derailed again.....
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Kahuna

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #244 on: April 09, 2013, 12:56:43 am »
LoL. While I was sleeping 4 pages of text appeared. So I started reading from my last post and answered stuff while working my way towards the newest page of this thread.
OPS
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #245 on: April 09, 2013, 01:01:01 am »
I just pretty much turned on all the minor factions and started playing.
Tutorial by fire.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #246 on: April 09, 2013, 01:02:18 am »
I took a little time to come up with something to share and in that time it devolved into something less than stellar.  I'd actually like to get back on topic though.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline _K_

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #247 on: April 09, 2013, 08:19:45 am »
Oh hey, this is now a CSG/first impressions thread!


When i first played, i actually consulted with the "objectives" screen alot, checking what i need to do. CSG's filled the screen with many points, so i guess they helped me get the direction. My biggest problem was that i had no idea if i was ready to attack AIHWs or not.

Though i liked them more when i thought they were absolutely random, not bound to different special structures. That way CSG's actually felt like pieces of a puzzle, not as a railroad. Kinda funny how my opinion changed simply because i realised their true purpose.

Speaking of tutorial... wait we have one? Never seen it.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 08:23:28 am by _K_ »

Offline Diazo

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #248 on: April 09, 2013, 09:43:53 am »
On the cheat issue, more than a few times I have thought to make an AAR about my games, but always refrained from doing so for the simple grounds that I am cheating. Would there be any thing against the rules about posting one? And if not, would anyone even care? Or, as I have feared, would the reactions be "Meh, you're a cheater so I am going to either ignore you or criticize you  for not playing fairly" ?

Go ahead and post it, just make sure when you note the game settings you include so the rest of us know what is going on.

A 'Cheat' in AI War has a different meaning then 'Cheat' in other games. Because you don't play against other people in AI War, cheating is simply methods the developer has given us to skew the game, essentially they told us "here, have fun breaking the game".

As compared to other games where cheating grants you an advantage over another player somehow.

The resources thing is no worse then putting some of the player-friendly minor factions up at intensity 10 I would think.

D.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #249 on: April 09, 2013, 10:42:11 am »
Oh hey, this is now a CSG/first impressions thread!


When i first played, i actually consulted with the "objectives" screen alot, checking what i need to do. CSG's filled the screen with many points, so i guess they helped me get the direction. My biggest problem was that i had no idea if i was ready to attack AIHWs or not.

Though i liked them more when i thought they were absolutely random, not bound to different special structures. That way CSG's actually felt like pieces of a puzzle, not as a railroad. Kinda funny how my opinion changed simply because i realised their true purpose.

Speaking of tutorial... wait we have one? Never seen it.
See, _K_ is now one of the best players we have in this forum.

He just admitted that CSGs were more important to him for learning the game than the actual 90 minute tutorial.

They didn't seem like "on-the-rail training wheels", they were a nice guide, if I'm understanding him correctly.

This is what I'm saying, you may have your own views concerning CSGs, and you're welcome to them; but to say that they're absolutely useless to new or veteran players is empirically untrue. Realize that's just your own baseless opinion, and gives you no right to call people who disagree stupid or lazy.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #250 on: April 09, 2013, 11:13:57 am »
but to say that they're absolutely useless to new or veteran players is empirically untrue.

If that was true, you would see 10/10 games won where the players viewed CSG's as an asset, not hand holding  (also called hinderance).

Realize that's just your own baseless opinion, and gives you no right to call people who disagree stupid or lazy.

Because your opinion is inherently less baseless?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #251 on: April 09, 2013, 11:19:43 am »
Let's just let the "blah blah blah is baseless/garbage/whatever" and "you said blah blah blah is baseless/garbage/whatever" stuff quietly fade away, please.

Pejorative language was used, probably beyond what the facts strictly permit, but standing on our dignity about past offenses isn't going to get us anywhere.  Reconcile, or have a duel, or just let it go.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #252 on: April 09, 2013, 11:22:31 am »
I vote having a duel.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #253 on: April 09, 2013, 11:24:44 am »
I would vote for duel, but under what terms?
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So, this whole crystal thing
« Reply #254 on: April 09, 2013, 11:26:43 am »
* keith.lamothe sells tickets.
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