Author Topic: So, this whole crystal thing (wait I think I used that title already...)  (Read 23165 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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I did say in the other thread "I think I'm done tilting at this particular windmill (crystal) for a while." ... well, turns out maybe not ;)  Still true in that I don't have anything further to say about crystal right now.


Anyway the idea that floated through my head at this late hour was: just collapse metal and crystal together entirely, and "promote" the hacking-antagonism "resource" (that's used to balance Knowledge-raiding, Ship-design-hacking, and Superterminal-hacking) into its slot.  Visually I'd probably put it next to AIP but you get the idea.

I wouldn't want to do that with hacking exactly as it is now because there's not enough you can do with it.  But there are other hacking activities we could add to make it a bit more mainstream.  And once that was in place we could do the resource change.


Not critical to the above, but: I'm also considering making the hacking "response scale" scale with AIP instead of just being static, but instead of getting worse with AIP it would get better: the higher your AIP, the more you can hack before the AI really starts going bananas on you.  The idea being that as the AI gets more distracted with your more overt actions (taking planets, etc) it's more likely to miss your more covert actions.  This would also allow for some forms of hacking I don't think would be a good idea in the current model (like hacking to destroy a CSG without taking the planet).  This would be something we could do with hacking on the resource bar that I wouldn't really want to do in the current situation because the player should be able to get at the relevant info pretty easily.


Thoughts?
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Offline chemical_art

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Now THIS is what I'm looking for.


YES!

NEW!

REVOLUTIONARY!

WORTH THE EFFORT!
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Offline Cinth

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I guess it hinges on what you can do with the hacking.  Personally, I don't have much reason to do much hacking.  Normally I just hit the ARS and ST and be done with it.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline chemical_art

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I guess it hinges on what you can do with the hacking.  Personally, I don't have much reason to do much hacking.  Normally I just hit the ARS and ST and be done with it.

For me, even if things weren't expanded, making hacking more visible is OK. It is a base game mechanic after all.

If it expands the potential for hacking, all the better.
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Since it is still a valid point, even with this new idea, I stand by this.

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While I am sure the current idea you have would be easier to code, perhaps another way to factor the Simple Economy toggle could be used. Rather than just merging them together and getting needlessly large numbers, do the following. Use ( M + C ) / 2 for all costs. Add them together, and then divide that result by 2. All income sources that produce both M and C do so in equal amounts, so you can just drop C out of them and would still be just as effective. For harvesters, divide their income by 2. Since the number of them has not changed, and all of them are now just metal, your income shouldn't change either. As you now have 2x the number of metal harvesters, you can get by with 1/2 the income from them. This would keep the numbers on costs from getting too pointlessly high (especially on high cost items like golems, trader toys, and FS) while at the same time give a new starting point from which to balance the cost of things from.

On the new bit about hacking. I like the idea. Hacking is a really neat mechanic, but its VERY limited. Beyond a few times, the response becomes very deadly to the things defending your hacker. And at the REALLY extreme edge, didn't someone have an AAR where they were killed by the hacking response?

I would ask, can we get an idea how the scaling would work? What kind of AIP levels are we looking at to get less murderous responses from the AI?

Offline Cinth

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I just disagree on that aspect.  It's purely an optional mechanic.  You don't even need to hack to beat the game.  That's why I said it really depends on how you expand hacking.  It needs to have more impact than what it does now.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline keith.lamothe

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I guess it hinges on what you can do with the hacking.  Personally, I don't have much reason to do much hacking.  Normally I just hit the ARS and ST and be done with it.
Right, right now it's just a secondary mechanic.  Cool (imo), but secondary.

Here I'm talking about making it core, to replace the departing core resource from m and c imploding on each other.  I'd want to avoid anything where you actually _have_ to do anything with it (for reasons I'm sure we don't need to retread here) but I wouldn't want there to be any game where you'd just have no reason to _want_ to use it.

Anyway, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves with "details on how to do this" before we decide "is this a good idea at all", but some examples of hacking that could we could add (some stolen shamelessly from player suggestions) :

- hacking a fab before capturing it to permanently unlock that mkV type (buildable at a special kind of dock or maybe a mkV tab on the normal space dock; whatever)

- hacking an advanced factory before capturing it to permanently unlock mkIV production capability (on a mkIV, or I guess mkIV&mkV tab on the normal space dock; whatever), though this would need to have a huge impact on the hacking response level to be at-all balanced.

- hacking a special forces guard post to decrease SF popcap and rate-of-growth (as long as that post lasts).

- assuming we do go with "individualized AI command stations" like I mentioned elsewhere recently, there could be a variety that buffs reinforcements but if you hack it you gain permanent (as long as that station stands, at least) metal income from the resource spots on that planet

- in the same vein, there could be an AI command station variety that gives a planet-wide munitions boost (or whatever) but if you hack it you gain permanent (as long as that station stands, at least) energy production from that planet

- also in that vein, there could be an AI command station variety that buffs the strategic reserve but if you hack it the strategic reserve gets a debuff to popcap/rate-of-growth instead (as long as that station stands, at least).

- hacking a CSG to destroy it without taking the planet; this would need a pretty severe response for balance, such that you're not really saving much in the way of AIP (though you wouldn't gain AIP directly from doing this) but you wouldn't be forced to take that particular planet.

- hacking a brutal core guard post to destroy it without doing it the hard way.  The AI would go nuts and you'd have a tough time maintaining cloak that close to a post (and it's right out if there's an eye, unless you can put it out), but I imagine there could be situations where you'd want to do this.

- edit: another one that comes to mind, harkening back to that "military builder" idea I tried to shoehorn in to crystal, is being able to hack an AI command station into giving you supply as long as the station stands, so you could start throwing down turrets on that planet or adjacent ones without actually taking the planet.  It could also count as non-AI for the purposes of computing "is the human player deepstriking?".

- edit: and another (not doing too good a job about not talking details yet, am I?) relatively low-impact-on-response form of hacking could be "suppress the AI Eye on this planet" as long as the hacking is happening.  Or perhaps it's just a permanent condition once the hacking is done, but that would need a bit higher response.


Quote
I would ask, can we get an idea how the scaling would work? What kind of AIP levels are we looking at to get less murderous responses from the AI?
Well, the idea is that the higher the AIP goes, the more hacking you can get away with, rather than less.  So basically gaining AIP raises your "hacking cap", though it's not a hard cap as you know.

Anyway, the specifics would be very much up for discussion but my thought is that you could get away with 1 Ship-Design-hack at AIP 10 but further hacking beyond that level would be ill-advised until you were at AIP 30, where you could get away with another one without the sky falling on your head.  I'd probably want hacking-room to scale up logarithmically (or something like that) with AIP so that unless you get to 1000 AIP you can't just hack everything with impunity (and even at 1000 there'd be limits).  In this model I'd like hacking to be core and important, but I wouldn't want you to be doing it all the time.  It'd still be a series of fairly surgical decisions like it is now, just with a broader selection and with those decisions (probably) coming at different stages of the game as your AIP increases.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 01:38:19 am by keith.lamothe »
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Offline Cinth

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I can see some benefit in that.  IF I'm going to be able to hack to can production capabilities, I'd like all my ships to show up though (shameless plug). 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline keith.lamothe

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I can see some benefit in that.  IF I'm going to be able to hack to can production capabilities, I'd like all my ships to show up though (shameless plug).
Hah.  That's where you have to use your hacker against the code to fix the display limit.
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Offline Kahuna

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OOoooh snap! I really like these hacking ideas!
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if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
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)
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echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
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Offline Faulty Logic

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This appeals to me far more than anything else suggested so far.

However, unless we added some major hacking opportunities, it isn't worth the effort to implement it.

So lets add those. Some thoughts:

New forms of hacking will have to be either low-cost or high-benefit to compete with current forms. Negative AIP and additional k are awesome, and so is ship selection in some cases.

Hacking for fab/factIV/ASC permanence is a great idea.
Quote
though this would need to have a huge impact on the hacking response level to be at-all balanced.
I disagree. It should be worth about 20 AIP reductions, because you can capture a new <structure> for 20.

Hacking for permanent supply or income is also a good idea.

Your other suggested hacks are fine as options, but I don't see myself as ever using them.

Perhaps adding some way to hack to increase fleetship caps (possibly only temporarily)?
Or some way to gain a "no-waves" window?
Or capturing a structure on an AI planet, while the AI still think it belongs to them?
Or hacking with a nasty response to alter that pesky AI floor?
Or hacking to achieve complete vis if playing with that off?
Or hacking to increase your wave warning time?
Or hacking to get a secondary tech tree with various gimmicky mantis suggestions (pickets, per-planet turrets, military builder)?

You could also add a Firewall AI type that really doesn't like you hacking.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 02:23:17 am by Faulty Logic »
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Offline Cinth

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I can see some benefit in that.  IF I'm going to be able to hack to can production capabilities, I'd like all my ships to show up though (shameless plug).
Hah.  That's where you have to use your hacker against the code to fix the display limit.

Hold on, let me go download a unity dev kit (kidding).

A solution to work around that would be valuable to me so I don't have to "game" the system to get all my ship types :)
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline RCIX

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*signs up*

I still want my human astro trains sometime though :D
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Offline Lancefighter

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As much as I love the hacking thing, could it potentially also be used for the spire campaign escalations? I'm not really sure what would be put there, but unless something serious happens with the hacking mechanic..


I do like the concept of research that can only be gained by hacking enemy strategic structures though.
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Offline nas1m

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I guess it hinges on what you can do with the hacking.  Personally, I don't have much reason to do much hacking.  Normally I just hit the ARS and ST and be done with it.
Right, right now it's just a secondary mechanic.  Cool (imo), but secondary.

Here I'm talking about making it core, to replace the departing core resource from m and c imploding on each other.  I'd want to avoid anything where you actually _have_ to do anything with it (for reasons I'm sure we don't need to retread here) but I wouldn't want there to be any game where you'd just have no reason to _want_ to use it.

Anyway, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves with "details on how to do this" before we decide "is this a good idea at all", but some examples of hacking that could we could add (some stolen shamelessly from player suggestions) :

- hacking a fab before capturing it to permanently unlock that mkV type (buildable at a special kind of dock or maybe a mkV tab on the normal space dock; whatever)

- hacking an advanced factory before capturing it to permanently unlock mkIV production capability (on a mkIV, or I guess mkIV&mkV tab on the normal space dock; whatever), though this would need to have a huge impact on the hacking response level to be at-all balanced.

- hacking a special forces guard post to decrease SF popcap and rate-of-growth (as long as that post lasts).

- assuming we do go with "individualized AI command stations" like I mentioned elsewhere recently, there could be a variety that buffs reinforcements but if you hack it you gain permanent (as long as that station stands, at least) metal income from the resource spots on that planet

- in the same vein, there could be an AI command station variety that gives a planet-wide munitions boost (or whatever) but if you hack it you gain permanent (as long as that station stands, at least) energy production from that planet

- also in that vein, there could be an AI command station variety that buffs the strategic reserve but if you hack it the strategic reserve gets a debuff to popcap/rate-of-growth instead (as long as that station stands, at least).

- hacking a CSG to destroy it without taking the planet; this would need a pretty severe response for balance, such that you're not really saving much in the way of AIP (though you wouldn't gain AIP directly from doing this) but you wouldn't be forced to take that particular planet.

- hacking a brutal core guard post to destroy it without doing it the hard way.  The AI would go nuts and you'd have a tough time maintaining cloak that close to a post (and it's right out if there's an eye, unless you can put it out), but I imagine there could be situations where you'd want to do this.

- edit: another one that comes to mind, harkening back to that "military builder" idea I tried to shoehorn in to crystal, is being able to hack an AI command station into giving you supply as long as the station stands, so you could start throwing down turrets on that planet or adjacent ones without actually taking the planet.  It could also count as non-AI for the purposes of computing "is the human player deepstriking?".

- edit: and another (not doing too good a job about not talking details yet, am I?) relatively low-impact-on-response form of hacking could be "suppress the AI Eye on this planet" as long as the hacking is happening.  Or perhaps it's just a permanent condition once the hacking is done, but that would need a bit higher response.


Quote
I would ask, can we get an idea how the scaling would work? What kind of AIP levels are we looking at to get less murderous responses from the AI?
Well, the idea is that the higher the AIP goes, the more hacking you can get away with, rather than less.  So basically gaining AIP raises your "hacking cap", though it's not a hard cap as you know.

Anyway, the specifics would be very much up for discussion but my thought is that you could get away with 1 Ship-Design-hack at AIP 10 but further hacking beyond that level would be ill-advised until you were at AIP 30, where you could get away with another one without the sky falling on your head.  I'd probably want hacking-room to scale up logarithmically (or something like that) with AIP so that unless you get to 1000 AIP you can't just hack everything with impunity (and even at 1000 there'd be limits).  In this model I'd like hacking to be core and important, but I wouldn't want you to be doing it all the time.  It'd still be a series of fairly surgical decisions like it is now, just with a broader selection and with those decisions (probably) coming at different stages of the game as your AIP increases.

This is by far the best idea so far. I really like it!
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