Author Topic: So, this whole armor thing  (Read 31930 times)

Offline Ranakastrasz

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #90 on: August 01, 2013, 08:10:21 pm »
I'm not a fan of totally removing the armor system. Some way to reward high damage shots vs high rof, low damage shots is nifty (though the game is laking something that directly go the other way).

The armor system as proposed at the start of the thread doesn't reward high damage vs high rof, 25% reduction is 25% reduction no matter how many shots it comes from.

As for something that goes the other way... Protector Starships do, but the AI doesn't have that mechanic. Laser Gatlings would basically be immune to Protector Starships because they fire so many shots that most would get through (and the blocked ones would be blocking trivial DPS vs blocking a fortress attack).

True. However, the thing to note is that we don't have to have low damage values be more effected by armor. Suppose, instead, that it is not the rapid-mini attacks that deal less damage, but rather all attacks, except for the armor piercing attacks, placed on Bombers, antiarmor, sniper, and a handful of other specilists, intended as anti armor. There is no reason, at all, to copy Starcraft, or any other game's armor system, if it does not add to the game. Rapid-fire attacks do not need to be less effective innately than slow, powerful attacks, because, if you do that, then Armor is a minor stat, with no major effect on the game, and with a handful of exceptions, anything with really heavy damage will still counter it.

I still don't see how it's necessary for one in every 20 shots to completely miss when instead you could make it so every shot does 1/20th the damage. I mean, if it were something like a meter you could see fill up that shows you when you'd miss your next shot, that's still just overcomplicating the combat.

To avoid streaks. Its not overcomplicating it, its under the hood, and invisible to the player. You will tend to get that many hits and misses anyway, but this prevents streaks which end the game due to bad luck.

Exactly why I suggest less random random numbers. Saying we have always used true random, hence we should always use true random, is circular reasoning, and not at all a valid reason to reject it. Unless you support and want streaks of good or bad rolls, and don't care about / enjoy them punishing players, or the effect is, as said, noted in advance, you should NOT be using True random. (or best true random you can generate)

One reason I like "true random" (or rather, independent "rolls" randomness) for when probability is listed is because if it says 20%, it means 20% chance for, in this case, each shot, regardless of what the recent shots were like. If you make it "less random" by trying to avoid "streaks", then sometimes that listed probability will be flat out wrong (it would have a much greater or much less than 20% chance if many of the last N shots were a streak of missing or hitting, respectively).

Now one way this can be avoided is to not list probability exactly. Maybe like "about 20%" or "~20%", or "not very likely", "somewhat likely", "very likely", or something like this. When you don't list (or claim to list) an exact probability for a shot to hit, you don't have to worry about any potential difference in per shot chances vs. long term expected hit rate.
Another way would be to show the "long term" probability (based on the formula, which would remain constant for a set of stats for the attacker and defender) AND the probability of the next shot (which would vary each shot based on recent history by whatever algorithm the "de-streakifier" uses)

Note, "true random" does not have to mean uniform distribution. There are other distributions out there that have independent events but do have a higher chance of returning something "closer" to the average, like Gaussian.

The interesting part of this, is that you can say that the 20% chance to hit is still a 20% chance to hit. one out of 5 attacks will hit, garenteed. Sure, individular attacks wont, but the player doesn't need to know that, and won't care, unless specifically number-crunshing, and consulting the wiki. (which, ideally, never happens in a game)

I object, seriously, to your saying, You cannot fix problem A because I prefer changing it into problem B. You cannot fix problem B, because I am changing it into Problem A.
If, in game, you discovered, that, for every 40 shots fired, 2-3 would hit, every, single, time, that it may in fact not matter significantly whether or not it is exactly 5% chance for every single attack? Or, are you going to be focusing on controling your bombers, and directing them to attack the space tanks? If the former, well, something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

If with pure random, you get a bad streak and die, you notice it, and complain.
If you use Pseudo-random, and fail to get a bad streak, and instead loose because you set off 4 T4 counter attack Guard posts, which swarm your planets, and it is clearly your fault for being less than careful, well, I do believe you will not be worried about random numbers, because they are not really a factor.

Yes, Psueduo random will flux the 20% chance up and down, depending on previous rolls. This will go all the way to 100% or 0%, in some cases. However, it will only go up if you miss, making future misses less likely, then, if streaking, impossible. And if you hit, chance of hit will go down. And, over 20 attacks, you will genereally get 4 hits, +- maybe 1 or 2. And that is fine, makes sense, gives you a stable damage output, and, hence, any failure to have enough Dakka to kill the rare spacetanks with heavy shielding, will be your fault for lack of a counter, not the RNG.


~Also, as a note, I think one problem with the Armor distribution, as is (Ignoring the Tech Level Comparision Disaster) is that
~Bombers should be unarmored, Have Armor Piercing, NOT high damage.
~Fighers lack Piercing. Unarmored.
~Frigates are Armored, deal extra to Fighter-types.

Hence, Only hardend targets, which are legitimately hardened, will have armor, (Not, every single unit tends to have armor, even if not really hardened) and hence will be countered by bombers, anti-armor, and anything else for anti-armor duty.



Offline chemical_art

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #91 on: August 01, 2013, 09:14:58 pm »
I'll just say this:

I hate current armor, and any system, including old shields, would be better.

To say this another way:

Any method of armor, including it outright, would be better then the current system.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #92 on: August 01, 2013, 09:22:12 pm »
It may just be my pedantic side coming out, but I would care very much if what is listed as a per shot chance wouldn't actually have that probability for each shot, even if in the long run that expected value is maintained. At that point, it would be incorrect to claim it is a chance for that shot to hit. (Though this is sort of a terminology thing; if the game made it clear somewhere that the percentage was a expected value the game aggressively tries to maintain, rather than a per shot chance, then I would still feel like it is a bit of a "dirty" solution, but I would no longer feel lied to or doubt the soundness of the engine)

So yes, in this case, the minutiae would bother me enough to put off my enjoyment of the game.

Again, that is just me. I'm sort of a stickler for proper terminology when it comes to precisely defined mathmatic things like per event probability vs expected value and such. ;)

Offline TechSY730

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #93 on: August 01, 2013, 09:24:48 pm »
I'll just say this:

I hate current armor, and any system, including old shields, would be better.

To say this another way:

Any method of armor, including it outright, would be better then the current system.

Is it more that you hate the current balance but think a subtractive armor system could work reasonably well if properly balanced? (Though a superior formula may exist for the purposes of this game's balance)

Or do you think that a subtractive armor system is completely unworkable for what this game is and needs for balance?

Of do you just dislike subtractive armor systems in general?

Offline chemical_art

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #94 on: August 01, 2013, 09:34:42 pm »
I'll just say this:

I hate current armor, and any system, including old shields, would be better.

To say this another way:

Any method of armor, including it outright, would be better then the current system.

Is it more that you hate the current balance but think a subtractive armor system could work reasonably well if properly balanced? (Though a superior formula may exist for the purposes of this game's balance)

Or do you think that a subtractive armor system is completely unworkable for what this game is and needs for balance?

Of do you just dislike subtractive armor systems in general?

I find, very broadly, three levels of strength.

Fleetships, starships, and post starships.

In other words, fleetships, starships, and superweapons.

The current armor simply cannot compensate for these three levels without a percent value system.

The AI and the player uses "super weapons" so frequently that fleetship armor is in the big picture meaningless. Since superweapons are in the big picture the things that matter, their armor matters. The niche of heavily armored fleetships simply doesn't exist.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 09:38:22 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline onyhow

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #95 on: August 02, 2013, 12:24:45 am »
Eh, I think having combination of current armor (work against low dmg high ROF weapn) and having an SC2 Immortal damage threshold system (work against high DMG low ROF weapon) might be better...

I think the biggest problem is that a single type of armor just can't encompass the fleetship/starship/superweapon difference well...and while multiple systems may take longer to learn it would help differentiate those and make them actually matter...

Offline Histidine

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #96 on: August 02, 2013, 12:29:19 am »
Simple subtractive (or capped damage, like SC2 Immortal) armor systems are simply not designed to handle a system where there is nearly 6 orders of magnitude between the lowest per-shot damage values (Laser Gatling 600) and the highest (Artillery Golem 10M).
Even disregarding such extreme values, you have up to 40-fold differences like Fighter (4,080) vs. Cursed Golem (160,000).

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #97 on: August 02, 2013, 02:11:48 am »
That's something that led me to the idea of just a percentage damage reduction that is straight-up just laid out for the player. No formulas, no nonsense like that. Some ships have partial armor piercing that ignore a flat portion of that percentage, and that's it. Subtraction clearly doesn't work in this game's case because the numbers are too wildly different, but something too complex isn't going to lend itself well to planning.

Offline Tridus

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #98 on: August 02, 2013, 05:56:16 am »
I'm not a fan of totally removing the armor system. Some way to reward high damage shots vs high rof, low damage shots is nifty (though the game is laking something that directly go the other way).

The armor system as proposed at the start of the thread doesn't reward high damage vs high rof, 25% reduction is 25% reduction no matter how many shots it comes from.

As for something that goes the other way... Protector Starships do, but the AI doesn't have that mechanic. Laser Gatlings would basically be immune to Protector Starships because they fire so many shots that most would get through (and the blocked ones would be blocking trivial DPS vs blocking a fortress attack).

True. However, the thing to note is that we don't have to have low damage values be more effected by armor. Suppose, instead, that it is not the rapid-mini attacks that deal less damage, but rather all attacks, except for the armor piercing attacks, placed on Bombers, antiarmor, sniper, and a handful of other specilists, intended as anti armor. There is no reason, at all, to copy Starcraft, or any other game's armor system, if it does not add to the game. Rapid-fire attacks do not need to be less effective innately than slow, powerful attacks, because, if you do that, then Armor is a minor stat, with no major effect on the game, and with a handful of exceptions, anything with really heavy damage will still counter it.

True, although in this case we're copying Warcraft 3's armor system instead of Starcrafts. :)

Offline Tridus

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #99 on: August 02, 2013, 06:00:08 am »
I find, very broadly, three levels of strength.

Fleetships, starships, and post starships.

In other words, fleetships, starships, and superweapons.

The current armor simply cannot compensate for these three levels without a percent value system.

The AI and the player uses "super weapons" so frequently that fleetship armor is in the big picture meaningless. Since superweapons are in the big picture the things that matter, their armor matters. The niche of heavily armored fleetships simply doesn't exist.

Fleetship armor is still going to be meaningless against superweapons. That's not going to change unless half the fleetships in the game have armor values over 80%, which would just be stupid.

When one ship has health measured in the hundreds of thousands and another ship is doing damage measured in the millions, non-absurd amounts of armor won't get the job done in any way that matters.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #100 on: August 02, 2013, 07:06:12 am »
I find, very broadly, three levels of strength.

Fleetships, starships, and post starships.

In other words, fleetships, starships, and superweapons.

The current armor simply cannot compensate for these three levels without a percent value system.

The AI and the player uses "super weapons" so frequently that fleetship armor is in the big picture meaningless. Since superweapons are in the big picture the things that matter, their armor matters. The niche of heavily armored fleetships simply doesn't exist.

Fleetship armor is still going to be meaningless against superweapons. That's not going to change unless half the fleetships in the game have armor values over 80%, which would just be stupid.

When one ship has health measured in the hundreds of thousands and another ship is doing damage measured in the millions, non-absurd amounts of armor won't get the job done in any way that matters.

I disagree, it would make a big difference sometimes. While it is true that for the absolute highest damage weapons it won't make a target live longer, 50% would make a big difference against other super weapons such as armored golems. In the bigger picture, even having  a fleetship take 2 hits instead of one is a 100% increase in effective life.
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Offline Tridus

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #101 on: August 02, 2013, 07:18:58 am »
Fleetship armor is still going to be meaningless against superweapons. That's not going to change unless half the fleetships in the game have armor values over 80%, which would just be stupid.

When one ship has health measured in the hundreds of thousands and another ship is doing damage measured in the millions, non-absurd amounts of armor won't get the job done in any way that matters.

I disagree, it would make a big difference sometimes. While it is true that for the absolute highest damage weapons it won't make a target live longer, 50% would make a big difference against other super weapons such as armored golems. In the bigger picture, even having  a fleetship take 2 hits instead of one is a 100% increase in effective life.

The armored golem does 1 million a shot. According to the wiki, the mk III fighter has 496k health. (It also says that for the mk IV, but I'm pretty sure that one is wrong.)

Unless it's got over 50% armor, the difference is nothing. And if the standard fighter has over 50% armor, then something is very, very wrong with how armor values are being given out. In fact, if the fleetship average armor is anywhere near 50% then something's wrong with how it's being used.

And the armored golem is one of the weaker attacking superweapons. The real high DPS stuff isn't going to notice fleetship armor unless the values are insanely high, and if they are it just makes armor piercing the IWIN ability. (That's also before any superweapon rebalance, and they're not going to get weaker as a result of that. The whole notion of trying to balance armor on the basis of fleetships vs superweapons is folly.)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 07:20:32 am by Tridus »

Offline chemical_art

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #102 on: August 02, 2013, 08:34:40 am »


And the armored golem is one of the weaker attacking superweapons. The real high DPS stuff isn't going to notice fleetship armor unless the values are insanely high, and if they are it just makes armor piercing the IWIN ability. (That's also before any superweapon rebalance, and they're not going to get weaker as a result of that. The whole notion of trying to balance armor on the basis of fleetships vs superweapons is folly.)

So the fighter would still be oneshoted often. What is wrong with that?

But really high marks would survive two shots, and fleetships with higher healths can have not so high marks survive two shots.

I don't see the problem here. It should be that only the really defensive fleetships can survive a superweapon. Otherwise  that isn't a super weapon.
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Offline Tridus

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #103 on: August 02, 2013, 08:40:55 am »
There is no problem unless people start worrying about it and we see the average ship with 50%+ armor. If it's only handed out selectively, then it's fine. And since you were the one who raised it, I figured it was worth talking about. :)

Offline Draco18s

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #104 on: August 02, 2013, 10:07:49 am »
But really high marks would survive two shots, and fleetships with higher healths can have not so high marks survive two shots.

If and only If ~50% armor.

A fleetship with more health?  Ok, let's try the Armor Ship.
Currently wtih 1,040,000 HP at mk3 and no meaningful armor (4500).  This converts over to 1,040,000 and say...10% armor.

Well it was already going to survive the first shot from the golem, and it's armor helps not at all.  Mk2 would still be one-shot (700k hp) and the mk5...1,740,000, still gets two-shot.

There is literally no difference between percentage based armor and the same percentage increase in HP.