So, this whole armor thing

[Toranth]

But this I will respond to. I am not 100% sure, but I can  NOT say that I have ever been beaten by a single superweapon. I have however been completely and totally curbstomped when the AI showed up with 6k or more fleetships and starships. In Ultra Low caps. So all in all I am much more scared of massive amounts of starship and below level units, than I am of anything less than 10 superweapons. I am sure that if it threw 20 or more Golems at me I would be very worried. But I rarely see that happen. Most of us are not Cinth, so we don't see the AI with superweaons in the 100's or more.

Quite.

I have been humbled by a single raid starship (on account of their armor being uncommon and there are few turrets *cough one* that has multipliers against it).
I have been humbled by blobs of mixed ships (on account of suiciding my army on a homeworld)
I have been humbled by globs of single ship types (usually due to poor planning or mistaking their true strength)
I have been humbled by a handful of plasma siege starships (because Force Fields)

But I have not been brought to my knees on any occasion that the AI has ever sent a golem my way.  Not once.

I've been taken down by a single Artillery Golem on my Homeworld.
I've had a Black Widow Golem capture my entire fleet at once, leaving me helpless.
Now, with Dire Guardians, I've lost to Infiltration DGs popping my HW any number of times; enough so that I pretty much always unlock Mil III as my first unlock.

So, yes, I fear single ships.  I also fear huge hordes of ships, even Laser Gatlings, just because of the inability to STOP them all before them kill you.

I suppose a better way of putting it is that I fear the AI.

[LaughingThesaurus]

I'd say the reason you're more likely to be killed by fleets of smaller ships rather than by one golem is because you might underestimate fleets of ships really easily. Golems, H/Ks? You'll probably send all the battleships for that fight. For a fleet, I'm more likely to send exactly what I need to counter it and get on with my life.
And of course, anything immune to force fields will just kill you.

[Draco18s]

I'd say the reason you're more likely to be killed by fleets of smaller ships rather than by one golem is because you might underestimate fleets of ships really easily. Golems, H/Ks? You'll probably send all the battleships for that fight. For a fleet, I'm more likely to send exactly what I need to counter it and get on with my life.
And of course, anything immune to force fields will just kill you.

Vampire Claws.

That is all.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Well, I'll rephrase that.
Anything that actually really scares you will probably get a substantial defensive reaction from you. Anything that's like 'meh, fighters' will probably get a little less of your attention.

[Draco18s]

Well, I'll rephrase that.
Anything that actually really scares you will probably get a substantial defensive reaction from you. Anything that's like 'meh, fighters' will probably get a little less of your attention.

I was replying to the "ignores force fields" bit
Vampire Claws ignore FFs, regenerate, and steal health on kill.  They will eat any structure that isn't immune to fusion cutters....like your (non military) command stations, resource harvesters, power generators, ship docks, starship constructurs, human habitations....

[keith.lamothe]

Fighters in AI attacks are something like a lull in the storm, but sometimes a deceptive lull: not nearly as dangerous as bombers, and without the missile frigate's "frigate-ing" aoe-immunity and range (both of which serve to let it survive longer in and strike back more at your defenses).  But they can still overwhelm you, mow down various unit types on your side, clog up the works, etc.

But yea, anyone dying to a solid-fighter wave is preobably either still figuring out defensive play, still figuring out how to keep AIP down, or lost a big gamble involving AIP and/or raid engines, etc.

To some extent the occurence of fighter waves should theoretically be a breather, in that not everything in the entire galaxy is optimally configured to kill you.  (and you can believe as much of that as you like)

[LaughingThesaurus]

Or really underestimated the wave and tried to multitask, I'd suppose.

[Draco18s]

Or really underestimated the wave and tried to multitask, I'd suppose.

* Draco18s has done that more than once

[Tridus]

Quite.

I have been humbled by a single raid starship (on account of their armor being uncommon and there are few turrets *cough one* that has multipliers against it).
I have been humbled by blobs of mixed ships (on account of suiciding my army on a homeworld)
I have been humbled by globs of single ship types (usually due to poor planning or mistaking their true strength)
I have been humbled by a handful of plasma siege starships (because Force Fields)

But I have not been brought to my knees on any occasion that the AI has ever sent a golem my way.  Not once.

Oddly I have been taken out by AI Golems, but not by Raid Starships. Possibly because I use a lot of Military Command Stations, and those have a funny tendancy of pushing AI Starships away. I once watched one Raid Starship get pushed around a big circle around the command station but never quite get to it.

[Draco18s]

Oddly I have been taken out by AI Golems, but not by Raid Starships. Possibly because I use a lot of Military Command Stations, and those have a funny tendancy of pushing AI Starships away. I once watched one Raid Starship get pushed around a big circle around the command station but never quite get to it.

I don't use military stations that much, TBH.

[TechSY730]

Oddly I have been taken out by AI Golems, but not by Raid Starships. Possibly because I use a lot of Military Command Stations, and those have a funny tendancy of pushing AI Starships away. I once watched one Raid Starship get pushed around a big circle around the command station but never quite get to it.

Cue the Benny Hill theme.

[KDR_11k]

Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that if we want to keep armor the counter to that should not be bombers. I think it used to be frigs back in the shield days due to the range mechanic.

[Draco18s]

Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that if we want to keep armor the counter to that should not be bombers. I think it used to be frigs back in the shield days due to the range mechanic.

I agree, but here's the problem.

Frigates should be the (triangle) unit with armor because:
1) Fighters shouldn't have it (typical "light craft" unit)
2) Fighters shouldn't beat it (typical "low damage, high rate of fire" unit)

This however ends up conflicting with:
3) Bombers aren't the counter

[Fluffiest]

Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that if we want to keep armor the counter to that should not be bombers. I think it used to be frigs back in the shield days due to the range mechanic.

I agree, but here's the problem.

Frigates should be the (triangle) unit with armor because:
1) Fighters shouldn't have it (typical "light craft" unit)
2) Fighters shouldn't beat it (typical "low damage, high rate of fire" unit)

This however ends up conflicting with:
3) Bombers aren't the counter

Your point 2 only applies if the new armour replacement is more effective against low-damage high-rof attacks, like the current one is. Several of the proposed armour replacements don't have that feature, so there'd be nothing wrong in principal with fighters countering armoured bombers.

There's a fourth option, actually. Why should any of the triangle ships have armour? I could happily see frigates gaining anti-armour firepower, for use against the rarer stuff with armour rather than against fighters.

[TechSY730]

Assuming armor becomes something only some ships get and/or something that doesn't discriminate between shot power, letting frigates get to be anti-armor, anti-fighter roles while letting the bomber retain its anti-structure, anti-capital ship roles seems fine to me.