Author Topic: So, this whole armor thing  (Read 31840 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2013, 11:07:58 pm »
Part of the idea is that armor piercing will become a lot rarer, and basically just be for the things that already effectively ignore armor, and thus it's more special.  Anyway, yea, there's some growing pains there.
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Offline _K_

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 12:40:48 am »
The reason i really dont like the %-based armor mechanics is that they result in much more primitive mechanics.

80% damage reduction is absolutely identical to a unit with just 5x HP. No regard for harder hitting weapons vs rapid-fire, no interesting scaling.

The whole mechanic devolves into "Well this unit has X% more effective HP, except for when attacked with armor piercing".
This is basically a game mechanic that exists solely to be countered by another mechanic. And those 2 mechanics are absolutely isolated from everything else. Why even bother? You literally add a game mechanic so a group X of units (Armor Piercing) could have bonus damage against group Y (armored units).
Maybe it could be achieved more easily with hull bonuses, and we then could just scrap the armor mechanic altogether?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2013, 12:45:38 am »
You literally add a game mechanic so a group X of units (Armor Piercing) could have bonus damage against group Y (armored units).
Maybe it could be achieved more easily with hull bonuses, and we then could just scrap the armor mechanic altogether?
I think you could be on to something, but given the one-dimensional nature of hull bonuses that could be tricky to achieve. 

How would you actually go about it, such that ships A, B, and C could have different % protections against ship D, but no extra protection against ship E (that is, E has armor-piercing) ?
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Offline _K_

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 12:56:47 am »
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How would you actually go about it, such that ships A, B, and C could have different % protections against ship D, but no extra protection against ship E (that is, E has armor-piercing) ?
Oh, i dont always come with a solution. Sometimes i just critisize others' solutions. Ideally, ship E would just have a damage multiplier against it, while others wouldnt.

But yeah, the current hull system is convulted as hell so its not as simple. I mean, i couldnt even memorise all the damage types vs armor types in Warcraft III. And a rework, of course, would be a very difficult task, which surely would wreck many things in the process.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2013, 01:04:52 am »
Oh, i dont always come with a solution. Sometimes i just critisize others' solutions.
I've noticed this ;)  But sometimes that's enough.

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Ideally, ship E would just have a damage multiplier against it, while others wouldnt.
Yea, that wouldn't let A, B, and C have different protections vs D, though.  If we just wanted "either 80% reduction, or no reduction" that would work, but I'm not quite resigned to going that simple yet.

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But yeah, the current hull system is convulted as hell so its not as simple. I mean, i couldnt even memorise all the damage types vs armor types in Warcraft III. And a rework, of course, would be a very difficult task, which surely would wreck many things in the process.
Right, that gets more into the territory of the weapon-type vs armor-type (replacing armor and hull-types completely) system I've trotted out a few times.  But talk about tearing up the game's balance, wow.  And for what?
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Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2013, 01:27:10 am »
I've asked this one before, and I cant recall if I ever got an answer. What factors first? Armor or Hull bonus? I THINK, because it make the most sense to me, but then I am crazy, is that first you multiply by the hull bonus, then subtract armor. Is this the case, and if so will it be remaining so?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2013, 01:44:16 am »
I've asked this one before, and I cant recall if I ever got an answer. What factors first? Armor or Hull bonus? I THINK, because it make the most sense to me, but then I am crazy, is that first you multiply by the hull bonus, then subtract armor. Is this the case, and if so will it be remaining so?
If armor is made multiplicative, the order would be mathematically irrelevant :)

Taking a quick look at the code (so not 100% sure, but this jives with what I remember from previous discussions) the current approach is to apply hull multipliers, and then armor.  Which is one reason armor doesn't have a large % impact for most units that don't have absurd amounts of it, unless it's facing swarmers or whatever.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2013, 02:04:49 am »
My problem with armor is that in a game with this scale, it's pretty invisible. On something like League, when I'm attacking someone I can see that they have 200 armor and I will deal A Lot Less (TM) damage (or more likely not, with the new penetration meta, but I digress). Will the same be true in a game whose per battle unit count is semi-regularly measured in the thousands? I just wonder whether it's clutter we don't really need.
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Offline _K_

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2013, 04:02:03 am »
Oh, and to clarify, i am more in favor of the old direct reduction armor not just because i dislike the suggestion, i actually like the current armor mechanics and believe they can give great results if set up properly.

The only legitimate complaint i heard about armor is that you can't make a MK-X exactly X times stronger than MK-I. That is true, but i am ok with this. On that note, armor probably shouldnt scale with mark level, the progression is much closer to linear when it remains the same.


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My problem with armor is that in a game with this scale, it's pretty invisible
If you dont see it, doesnt mean its not there. Armor affects battles significantly, its just not easy to notice. The units in AIW are decent at prioritising targets, so at least theres no need for excessive micro.


Offline Bognor

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2013, 07:02:44 am »
The reason i really dont like the %-based armor mechanics is that they result in much more primitive mechanics.

80% damage reduction is absolutely identical to a unit with just 5x HP. No regard for harder hitting weapons vs rapid-fire, no interesting scaling.

The whole mechanic devolves into "Well this unit has X% more effective HP, except for when attacked with armor piercing".
This is basically a game mechanic that exists solely to be countered by another mechanic. And those 2 mechanics are absolutely isolated from everything else. Why even bother?
This.  Sorry but I find the current system far more interesting.

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The only legitimate complaint i heard about armor is that you can't make a MK-X exactly X times stronger than MK-I.
I really don't see why this matters.  It's not like unlocking Mark II ships costs exactly twice as much knowledge as unlocking Mark I ships.  3 Mark I units = 1 Mark III unit is a convenient approximation, nothing more.  It's made untrue not only by armor, but also by ion cannons, swallow, overkill, paralysis, damage boosts, attrition, implosion artillery, transports, and probably a bunch of other mechanics that don't come to mind immediately.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2013, 07:17:07 am »
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The reason i really dont like the %-based armor mechanics is that they result in much more primitive mechanics.

80% damage reduction is absolutely identical to a unit with just 5x HP. No regard for harder hitting weapons vs rapid-fire, no interesting scaling.
I disagree with this.

I'm assuming that most of the "fast-hitting" ships will have no armor piercing. Some of the slower-firing, heavier damage dealers (such as bombers) probably will.

In that regard, it does promote what you would expect in a Sci-Fi Universe - the more powerful the weapon, the more it dents the enemy's armor.

As of now, armor seems to make no difference at all.  It is basically an invisible mechanic. Granted, that doesn't mean it isn't actually working, but if the player can't build strategies around it, or use it to his advantage, then it might as well not be there.

This new mechanic could become a lot more intuitive.  Like Keith said, Armor and Armor Piercing would become much rarer than they were before.  It placed in large quantites on only a handful of ships, you would know when you needed it, and how to counter it, which opens up a new game dynamic.

It's true that 80% damage reduction is the same as 5x health, BUT if you have a type of ship that can completely bypass the 80% damage reduction, that's a much more efficient way than just trying to kill than target 5 times in a row.

This mechanic has the potential to be much more visible and impacting than the one we have now, in a way that you can build tactics around. It all depends on the execution. Personally I think armor and armor piercing should be used sparingly, instead of just thrown willy nilly in varying amounts on basically every ship in the game. In that sense it would be somewhat like a new hull-type multiplier rather than a universal game mechanic. If the players KNOW which ships have it (Armor Ships for example), they'll be prepared to counter it, instead of just ignoring it completely like we do now.
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Offline _K_

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2013, 07:37:50 am »
I'm assuming that most of the "fast-hitting" ships will have no armor piercing. Some of the slower-firing, heavier damage dealers (such as bombers) probably will.

In that regard, it does promote what you would expect in a Sci-Fi Universe - the more powerful the weapon, the more it dents the enemy's armor.
This is already true.

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As of now, armor seems to make no difference at all.  It is basically an invisible mechanic. Granted, that doesn't mean it isn't actually working, but if the player can't build strategies around it, or use it to his advantage, then it might as well not be there.
It doesnt matter what system you are going to use. You are still going to be using fleetballs composed of no less than 4 fleet ship types and a whole bunch of other things. Armor is "visible" when you can see individual combat interactions, or when your fleet is very homogenous, with all ships having some trait.

The only other option is to go into the territory of extremely hard counters, like we currently have with fortresses vs bombers. Unless the counter is so hard it makes a huge impact on the battle, the armor will remain difficult to notice.

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This new mechanic could become a lot more intuitive.  Like Keith said, Armor and Armor Piercing would become much rarer than they were before.  It placed in large quantites on only a handful of ships, you would know when you needed it, and how to counter it, which opens up a new game dynamic.
I dont see what it has to do with the new mechanic, this part is more about changing the armor and pierce values of different ships. Yes, such rebalance would improve things, regardless of the armor mechanic we decide to use.

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It's true that 80% damage reduction is the same as 5x health, BUT if you have a type of ship that can completely bypass the 80% damage reduction, that's a much more efficient way than just trying to kill than target 5 times in a row.
I dont see how its different from the current system. The only difference is that right now the damage reduction is not a fixed % value, but it depends on the attackers raw attack value.
If in the current system a ship has high enough armor, it will get 80% damage reduction, and if some other ship has 999 999 piercing (like snipers), then it does exactly the same as  in your description.


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It all depends on the execution. Personally I think armor and armor piercing should be used sparingly, instead of just thrown willy nilly in varying amounts on basically every ship in the game.

Yep. It all depends on how you set up the actual ship stats.

The current mechanic, however, has many layers of complexity by making reduction also depend on RoF and shot count. As result, all kinds of combinations can be created. Like a hard-hitting ship, that has no problem murdering small ships, even if armored, but when facing ships with really high armor, it suddenly loses its capacity. Or ships like autocannon pods, that are supposed to be dealing massive damage to unarmored targets, but sharply lose effectiveness when enemy has a tiniest amount of armor.



What i would rather see is this hull/shot type rebalance, coupled with armor rebalance. But of course, such thing would need alot of time and work.
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« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 08:05:27 am by _K_ »

Offline Histidine

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2013, 08:41:15 am »
What i would rather see is this hull/shot type rebalance, coupled with armor rebalance. But of course, such thing would need alot of time and work.
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Our first challenge is to create an entire economic infrastructure, from top to bottom, out of whole cloth. No gradual evolution from previous economic systems is possible, because there is no previous economic system. Each interdependent piece must be materialized simultaneously and in perfect working order; otherwise the system will crash out before it ever gets off the ground.
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Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, Industrial Base tech quote. Or, in-universe: CEO Nyabudike Morgan, The Centauri Monopoly.

Damn, now I'm getting a bout of nostalgia...

Anyway, two points.
One: I agree with Diazo - want granularity plz.

Two: I've said this before, but I don't like any system that relies on absolute values, particularly factoring the attacker's per-shot damage directly into the armor damage reduction equation, due to their inflexibility.
A good example is weapons that go against the grain - if you want a bunch of rapid-fire weapons that don't care too much about armor you have to set appropriate AP values for each one. What about a high damage weapon that does poorly against armor (e.g. a high-caliber fragmentation shot)? Does it get negative armor piercing?
The current system also makes low-damage ships extremely sensitive to even minute changes in their damage or enemy armor, while high-damage ships barely care - even if they're different Mark levels of the same ship type. Say Starship A has 500 armor, Fleetship X Mk. I does 1000 damage and Fleetship X Mk. II does 2000. Then someone changes Starship A to have 600 armor instead. Fleetship X Mk. I has lost 20% of its DPS against Starship A, Mk. II has lost... 6.6%. Mk. III loses 4%. (Yes, yes, I know two Mk Is will never be truly identical to one Mk II, that's not the point)

Allowing armor penetration to be independent of raw damage makes things much easier to set up and balance.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 08:50:21 am by Histidine »

Offline chemical_art

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2013, 08:49:29 am »

Our first challenge is to create an entire economic infrastructure, from top to bottom, out of whole cloth. No gradual evolution from previous economic systems is possible, because there is no previous economic system. Each interdependent piece must be materialized simultaneously and in perfect working order; otherwise the system will crash out before it ever gets off the ground.

[Off topic]

Nostalgia indeed. Of course, when I play "big economy" I think "big economy to support big military". Needless to say, I ran into roadblocks in my first game.
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Offline RCIX

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Re: So, this whole armor thing
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2013, 10:06:22 am »
I'll go ahead and explicitly voice my dislike for armor in AI war. I don't think it should be here, period. There are plenty of other mechanics that gives combat variety, we don't *need* another, and no matter how you do it, it won't be very obvious how it works.
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