Author Topic: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?  (Read 4503 times)

Offline Deleth

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So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« on: December 27, 2011, 12:02:02 am »
And it doesn't seem to be the one of the ways I normally use. I often end up either rushing and pressing the other side from the very beginning (which doesn't seem to work in this game...) or I turtle and slowly grind the enemy to dust (doesn't seem to work that good either).

Just to explain my current situation. I picked this game up not to long ago after I had my eyes on it for quite some time but never came around to actually buy it. I started a game with two defensive AIs since I wanted to have a chance to actually "learn" it before I get rushed by an aggressiv AI. I set the difficulty to seven, just for the heck of it.
The two AIs I'm playing against are Entrenched Homeworldler and Turtle. And at the beginning the game was pretty "easy". Since I'm playing on a map with 4 big clusters connected through a single central system I thought it might be a good idea to completly clear out my corner and thus force the AI to attack a single system.
Untill that point everything was going pretty good. Aside from the fact maybe that there was only a single advanced research facility on my around 25 planets and only one advanced factory. Nothing to produce core ships at all though.
I ended up throwing the AI out of my corner and moved into the central sector. I heavily fortified that one, building several Mark III and II fortresses along with Laser Towers Mark III-I and MLRS I-III also the bulk of my fleet is there and all my new build ships are teleported there.

This is where my progress ended, roughly 4 hours ago. I'm now around 700-800 AI progress. And any kind of progress on my side must be bought with lots and lots of sacrifice. If I even make any. One of the worlds leading into another star cluster is completly filled with Mark V ships. The other world leading towards the biggest starcluster is where the AI is massing it's ships. There are usually several thousand ships right at the portal, together with the obligatory defenses and system fleet.
The smallest cluster wasn't defended very well. Aside from 2 planets who're filled with Mark V ships and annihilate my whole 2k ship fleet before I am even through the portal. Sadly those two planets are the only ones of interest. One with an advanced research center the other one with an spire achieve. I can get neither though.

Deep scouting behind the AI fortifications showed my that there are in fact lots of core production facilities and advanced research centers. By the time I could reach those the game would be over. Since most of them are right next to the AI homeworlds.

Oh yeah did I mention that I face an constant stream of THOUSANDS of ships, those ships often do not bother to even attack my defenses instead trying to rush through. Forcing me to fortifiy the system right behind my front aswell. (I put up every kind of tower I could still build and some Mark I-II fortresses there).

I am at the point where I honestly consider building lots of missiles just to make any progress at all. :|

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2011, 01:23:36 am »
Sorry for this light reply, but I am on my phone so I can't really make a massive reply. But as far as I can tell from your post you are definitely "doing it wrong". AI War is not about capturing every system and eradicate the AI that way. It's all about making tough choices on which planet to take and which ones to leave alone. Massive AI Progress are a sign of having been too aggressive. The AI has unlimited resources, you do not. Pissing the AI off so much will inevitably lead to what you are seeing now.

Try to only take planets you absolutely need (chokepoints, resources or similar) and just ignore others. The less planets you take, the less the AI will care about you and thus you will stand a chance against it. The most vital thing to understand about AI War is that it isn't symmetrical. The AI could crush you in an instant if it felt you were a real threat. Your job is to convince it that you aren't until it's too late for it to do anything about it.
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Offline Lee

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2011, 01:27:00 am »
Couple things you may want to try:

Take some Raid Starship and go after Data Centers to try and control your AI progress a bit, if you can find and control a super terminal you may be able to shave several hundred points off.

Missiles: could be very worth it, barring that, try and lure large fleets into your defenses by moving your fleet a system or two back. If you're playing with Spire ships, a martyr or two could make a significant dent in the AI forces.

If you're having trouble with ships trying to rush past your defenses, make sure you cover your wormholes with shields. Make liberal use of tractor beam, gravity, and spider turrets to multiply the effectiveness of your defenses.

I'll be honest, I've found the defensive AIs to be the most irritating to play against. (One-Way Doormaster is an intensely annoying AI) I've actually found playing against AIs like The Tank and Sledgehammer can make for faster, less grindy games.


Offline Jaunt

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2011, 01:46:45 am »
There's a difference between "only one right way" and "you're not currently doing so hot". I mean, technically "destroy the enemy through superior harassment and recon coupled with striking when you have the advantage" is "one right way" to win basically every multiplayer RTS since  Warcraft 1 all the way through whatever the latest Command and Conquer is, but that doesn't mean there's no variation in play, nor does it mean the game is a railroad because "build nothing but infantry" isn't a viable win in 95% of matches. I'm stretching the metaphor way too far now. The good news is Chris will probably post an even longer, more coherent explanation because he's an awesome dude and he gets sad when people have a bad experience with his game.

So I'll just throw out some strategic advice. First off, know that you are on a clock and at a constant disadvantage. AI Progress only goes up, except for a finite number of times when you can make it go down, unless you're playing with whacky stuff like Spire Civilian Leaders, or you're abusing the Superterminal. But I digress. Generally, AI Progress goes mostly up, and any downward movement is merely a slight to moderate mitigation of that trend. AI Progress affects what the AI will have to throw at you. The AI also reinforces assiduously, and you will basically never be able to kill faster than it can replace ships. You can only defeat it in detail, and only temporarily.

Second...yeah, that's really about it. Though I'm sure you already know, taking systems makes the AI stronger even as it makes you stronger, due to the AIP increases associated with destroying its command centers. Taking a sector can greatly increase your security, but if you don't get many goodies in that sector, it may be counterproductive in terms of resource and AIP costs. My partner and I violently disagree on this point; I'm almost always in favor of neutering/ignoring any planet that doesn't stand between me and galactic blind, she would most likely prefer to expand in a circle, first taking out every system adjacent to our command centers, then every system in 2 hops, then 3, until we win. I suspect most people fall somewhere in between our two admittedly extremeist positions. But more importantly, you may have overconcentrated the AI's attentions.

Generally when you play, as you take systems and the game starts to get serious, you will have increasingly greater planets on alert, and you'll be defending on more and more fronts, and you'll have worlds that are sacrificial and expendable, and easily rebuilt, and you'll have the planets which get serious defenses, either because they house irreplaceable resources like fabs or fact. IVs, or because they're natural bottlenecks in your burgeoning galactic empire. While this means you have to occasionally reclaim some rather generic systems, it also means the AI will be spreading its reinforcements over 10 or 15 or 20 systems instead of plopping every single ship on one of three systems immediately adjacent you.

Then there's border aggression. This is an AI behavior that I believe still exists, but might not. Basically, once the AI runs out of places to reinforce, everything in excess will just unceremoniously rush you. That would be why you're eating constant attacks in the four digit range. That, and the waves. At 800 AIP, the waves will be somewhat ugly.

On the defensive side, gravity turrets and tractors would help deal with lots and lots of ships that try to break through to your less defended systems. Placing forcefield after forcefield over the wormhole would also help, especially if your active defenses cluster around that point, or at least have it in range.

On the offensive side, you don't need to destroy every ship standing in your way, you just need to hit the targets that count. That means often times a transport full of mark 1 bombers can win a system for you. Or if not, one transport of mk 1 bombers and a handful of decoy transports. The AI hates that. Although 2k mark V's will still murder just about anything.

Offline Deleth

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2011, 03:03:54 am »
The thing is I am still making progress. Since I manage to collect research points. My real problem is that there was hardly any kind of advanced production or research on my quarter of the universe. Nearly all of them are close to the highest enemy concentration and homeworlds. I don't know if it is supposed to be like that or if I was just extremly unlucky.
Also despite "threat 6000-7000" the enemy does not in fact attack me. They're sitting right behind the wormholes. If I move my fleet far enough away they do actually attack. The problem I have then is that the carriers simply rush through and they're doing a good job at it. They completly ignore force fields and about anything and make a run for the wormholes.

Sorry for this light reply, but I am on my phone so I can't really make a massive reply. But as far as I can tell from your post you are definitely "doing it wrong". AI War is not about capturing every system and eradicate the AI that way. It's all about making tough choices on which planet to take and which ones to leave alone. Massive AI Progress are a sign of having been too aggressive. The AI has unlimited resources, you do not. Pissing the AI off so much will inevitably lead to what you are seeing now.
You don't really make "tough" choices. The game is pretty much railroading the player. After reading the tactics and stuff, there's about ONE right away to play it and that's about it. I liked the game so far and can't really understand why it is necessary to enforce a single way of playing this game and punishing every other way.

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Try to only take planets you absolutely need (chokepoints, resources or similar) and just ignore others. The less planets you take, the less the AI will care about you and thus you will stand a chance against it. The most vital thing to understand about AI War is that it isn't symmetrical. The AI could crush you in an instant if it felt you were a real threat. Your job is to convince it that you aren't until it's too late for it to do anything about it.
If you don't take said planets you have to spread out aswell. Constantly suffering attacks on about everything. What you're describing right now is the way the game is pretty much railroading the player enforcing a single way of playing the game. I really liked this game at first, but this is kind of ruining the fun for me.

Oh yeah. It seems like I didn't get the best ships either. Since I didn't know that I can pick those I want. I ended up with the rocket frigates, the basic fighter, armor ships and got the spaceplane from an advanced research station.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 03:07:06 am by Deleth »

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2011, 03:34:47 am »
Well, Tetris only allows you to drop blocks, Mario only allows you to go forward. Every game has a limitation on what the player can do, depending on the scope and game design. AI:War is different than your cookie cutter RTS in that it is assymetrical and you are fighting against a vastly superiour foe. You simply can't roflstomp the AI because it's a god among insects. That's the basic game design and I can't really see how that is "railroading" you as a player. You still make the choices on what planets to take, what planets to ignore, what planets to raid, which ones to neuter, which way to go through the universe and which chokepoints to secure.

What else do you need? It might just be that AI:War isn't a game for you, since it doesn't fit your playstyle or what you want from a game. Games are just like movies. Some you like, some you don't. But don't blame the movie for you not liking it (unless it's complete rubbish :D).

I'm also not really clear about what you mean with "one way". You can change this game so stupidly much that there are a myriad of ways to do things. You can go Spire, Survival, normal campaign, use Golems, mass fleet ships, mass starships. I mean...I simply do not understand your point, unless you are attacking the very core mechanic of the assymetry. If that's your gripe, then there's really nothing to do about it. You can't fart rainbows in Tetris because it's not in the game design and you can't overpower the AI because it's designed to be different than symmetrical RTSs.
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Offline Deleth

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2011, 04:22:34 am »
Well, Tetris only allows you to drop blocks,
Tetris however allows you to decide where, how, in what way and how fast you want to drop said blocks. Also Tetris is a very very old game.
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Mario only allows you to go forward.
That isn't the case anymore since Mario 3.
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Every game has a limitation on what the player can do, depending on the scope and game design.
Yes, but usually games try to allow the player to solve problems however he or she wants and give them as many options as possible.
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AI:War is different than your cookie cutter RTS in that it is assymetrical and you are fighting against a vastly superiour foe.
Actually that kind of setting is rather common. Look at a few games. You're usually supposed to be the side about to lose the war.
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You simply can't roflstomp the AI because it's a god among insects. That's the basic game design and I can't really see how that is "railroading" you as a player. You still make the choices on what planets to take, what planets to ignore, what planets to raid, which ones to neuter, which way to go through the universe and which chokepoints to secure.
The railroading part comes in where you're forced to play it in one and exactly one way. Every other attempt seems to be punished. Fighting against a vastly superior foe isn't the problem, that's quite common actually. Most games however allow you some kind of growth and reward your efforts whatever they might be. AI War only rewards one way of doing things, at least that's what it looks like to me at the moment.
My intent in coming to the forum was to find out if that is actually try, and from the answers so far it seems to be.

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What else do you need? It might just be that AI:War isn't a game for you, since it doesn't fit your playstyle or what you want from a game. Games are just like movies. Some you like, some you don't. But don't blame the movie for you not liking it (unless it's complete rubbish :D).
You can blame a movie for being bad. Same goes for games. I don't say AI War is generally bad or that I absolutely dislike the game. I liked it untill I hit this wall. The problem I have is that I am forced to play it exactly one and only one way. Why's that?
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I'm also not really clear about what you mean with "one way". You can change this game so stupidly much that there are a myriad of ways to do things. You can go Spire, Survival, normal campaign, use Golems, mass fleet ships, mass starships. I mean...I simply do not understand your point, unless you are attacking the very core mechanic of the assymetry. If that's your gripe, then there's really nothing to do about it. You can't fart rainbows in Tetris because it's not in the game design and you can't overpower the AI because it's designed to be different than symmetrical RTSs.
The one way to go about the core game seems to be to fight as less as possible. You're not allowed to actually expand. You're supposed to skip planets and leave stuff alone. And if you even dare to step from the path the dev(s) want you to go about playing the game you're punished right away.
I don't have a problem with fighting a superior foe, I have a problem with not being allowed to actually inflict "damage" on it or get stronger at my own and play it any other way then the way the dev(s) seem to want me to play it.

Offline tigersfan

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2011, 07:12:28 am »
I don't think that the game forces you to play one and only one way. If fact the beauty of it is that there are lots of choices at every turn in how best to proceed. If you look through the forums, you will see truckloads of discussion and sometimes even arguments about how players feel one should best proceed in different situations.

That said however, there are a number of different paths you cannot take. One of them seems to be the one you've tried, which is "take everything in sight and take no prisoners". The reason for this is pretty straightforward: there is no way for the "take every planet" method to not feel like a grind. One of AI:War's design goals is to try to avoid grinding whenever possible.

Offline x4000

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2011, 07:47:49 am »
Actually, even the "take everything in sight" route is viable, and we've had players complete games in about 30-40 hours that way on difficulty 6 and down. It's a very hard way to play, and really different from the normal game flow, but I think it's cool that people experiment and do what they like. On the other hand, we've had some players playing an ultra-low-planet-count kind of game, where it's amazing how little they take, and how strategically they take their targets, in order to win.

I would argue that the game has quite a number of valid ways to play, however this game isn't an rts in the overall game flow and this most rts tactics at the strategic level don't really work here. You can really rush in a 4X, generally speaking.

The OP, in a lot of ways, brings to mind the analogy "why can't I just run at the enemies like in Quake when I'm playing a cover-based shooter?" and the answer is pretty much the same: you can, if you play on a lower difficulty, but then you miss out on the actual nuanced strategies unique to the subgenre in question.

There are a lot of valid strategies in AI War, Nd if you look through posts in the strategy subforum you'll see lots of them. But I think it's really rather bland if you can boil all he strategies in every RTS game down into rushing or gurgling or middle ground, so that's not something you can do in AI War. There are choices here, but they are different. Chess, Checkers, and Go have no unifying strategies, right? I think that's a lot more interesting than making slight riffs off starcraft like often happens with rts games.

Hope that helps!
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Offline Deleth

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2011, 08:10:57 am »
Actually, even the "take everything in sight" route is viable, and we've had players complete games in about 30-40 hours that way on difficulty 6 and down. It's a very hard way to play, and really different from the normal game flow, but I think it's cool that people experiment and do what they like. On the other hand, we've had some players playing an ultra-low-planet-count kind of game, where it's amazing how little they take, and how strategically they take their targets, in order to win.

I would argue that the game has quite a number of valid ways to play, however this game isn't an rts in the overall game flow and this most rts tactics at the strategic level don't really work here. You can really rush in a 4X, generally speaking.
So I am now at the point where the AI simply throws thousands upon thousands of ships at me. I especially like how they come in carriers with up to 1200 ones. And how these carries come in swarms. Who completly ignore my defense and simply rush through. I especially like how they can simply fly right through force fields! ;)

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The OP, in a lot of ways, brings to mind the analogy "why can't I just run at the enemies like in Quake when I'm playing a cover-based shooter?" and the answer is pretty much the same: you can, if you play on a lower difficulty, but then you miss out on the actual nuanced strategies unique to the subgenre in question.
Actually I share Yahtzees opinion on cover based shooters. They neither need "more tactic" nor are they generally harder then non cover based shooters. They simply take longer to finish at times and overall are a pretty cheap move on the side of the developers, especially to cut down on the AI (No I am not accusing anyone here of doing that).

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There are a lot of valid strategies in AI War, Nd if you look through posts in the strategy subforum you'll see lots of them. But I think it's really rather bland if you can boil all he strategies in every RTS game down into rushing or gurgling or middle ground, so that's not something you can do in AI War. There are choices here, but they are different. Chess, Checkers, and Go have no unifying strategies, right? I think that's a lot more interesting than making slight riffs off starcraft like often happens with rts games.

Hope that helps!
The problem is, even in Chess you can do whatever you want as long as you obey the rules of the games. This doesn't seem to be the case in AI War. I can try alot of strategies, and then getting punished vicious for doing so. From what I've read it all comes down to engage the AI as less as possible skipping as many planets as possible and maybe neutering some.
Also I don't think you can boil down all the strategy games down to just those two options. There are far to many and they're far to different. Obviously there are many who "take inspiration" from other games and thus end up being kind of "similar". But having played many, many, many strategy games starting back with the very first Command and Conquers, many of the clones, the Homeworld Series, Civilization and everything I found remotely interesting I can say that they don't all play like that.
I'm not saying that AI War is a bad game by any means. To me it just feels like the game mechanic has me in a stranglehold giving me just enough space so I don't suffocate. I really liked the first 10~ hours of the game though.

@The guy who said something about "Grind". I can understand if someone wants to avoid that kind of playstyle. Having experienced several campaigns on the biggest available Maps of Galactiv Civilization 2 (with diplomatic and technology victory disabled) I know how tedious it can feel after a time. So I think giving people alternatives is a good thing. I don't understand why one is punished if he tries to win that way though. It is afterall not "easier" then just skipping planets or making a run for the objectives.

Edit, and yeah maybe the Ship Classes I have at my disposable aren't the best out there. That might contribute to the situation I am in now.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 08:16:08 am by Deleth »

Offline tigersfan

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2011, 08:51:13 am »

The problem is, even in Chess you can do whatever you want as long as you obey the rules of the games. This doesn't seem to be the case in AI War. I can try alot of strategies, and then getting punished vicious for doing so. From what I've read it all comes down to engage the AI as less as possible skipping as many planets as possible and maybe neutering some.
Also I don't think you can boil down all the strategy games down to just those two options. There are far to many and they're far to different. Obviously there are many who "take inspiration" from other games and thus end up being kind of "similar". But having played many, many, many strategy games starting back with the very first Command and Conquers, many of the clones, the Homeworld Series, Civilization and everything I found remotely interesting I can say that they don't all play like that.
I'm not saying that AI War is a bad game by any means. To me it just feels like the game mechanic has me in a stranglehold giving me just enough space so I don't suffocate. I really liked the first 10~ hours of the game though.

@The guy who said something about "Grind". I can understand if someone wants to avoid that kind of playstyle. Having experienced several campaigns on the biggest available Maps of Galactiv Civilization 2 (with diplomatic and technology victory disabled) I know how tedious it can feel after a time. So I think giving people alternatives is a good thing. I don't understand why one is punished if he tries to win that way though. It is afterall not "easier" then just skipping planets or making a run for the objectives.


To both of these I have the same response, and it goes along with what Chris said. Sure, in chess you CAN do anything within the bounds of the rules, but, there are any number of strategies that if you try them against a good player, you'll be crushed, and they just aren't viable strategies. They only time you have any chance of winning against them is to play on a lower level, or against a weaker chess player, as the case may be.

Offline Cyborg

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2011, 12:31:40 pm »
Maybe the original poster is suffering from optimization sickness? That happens to me sometimes, and it usually shows up as a post on this forum. Unfortunately, there is no cure, and if you attempt to optimize this game, it is possible for a lot of the mechanics. Not all of them, however, as once in a while the emergent AI will throw a combination of behaviors that is startling for the moment, enough to mix things up just a little bit. Actually, the best cure for it for me so far has been the spire campaign, which has so much action packed into it, that it's still incredibly exciting to play. I actually like it better than vanilla, so if you haven't tried it, maybe that will work for you.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2011, 12:42:01 pm »
Did someone mention carriers? I hate them.. i wish they were never implemented. They are truly cheesy and i have no idea why they are in the game

Before the waves did kinda "spread out" when they overwhelmed your first defense so that only some trickled into your homeworld, but now carriers essentially beeline there. It literally destroyed the late-game huge battles.

so Deleth you have a huge point there. I wish there was an option "carriers off" in the game settings. Because that is not a feature i like at all.
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Offline Cyborg

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2011, 12:49:23 pm »
In regards to carriers, in my play group, we go for those as a sort of mission. You're right, if they attack your base, it's just all kinds of cheese. That's why you have to attack them first.
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Offline Deleth

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Re: So I'll guess there's only one "right way" to play this game?
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2011, 03:26:16 pm »
Did someone mention carriers? I hate them.. i wish they were never implemented. They are truly cheesy and i have no idea why they are in the game

Before the waves did kinda "spread out" when they overwhelmed your first defense so that only some trickled into your homeworld, but now carriers essentially beeline there. It literally destroyed the late-game huge battles.

so Deleth you have a huge point there. I wish there was an option "carriers off" in the game settings. Because that is not a feature i like at all.
Well the problem I have with those (and they're actually one of my biggest problems) is that they simply run straight through my defenses and forcefields don't seem to bother them one bit at all. If you have several of those coming at you at the same time each loaded with thousands of ships it just isn't fun. They just speed right through any kind of defense. Why's that?