Arcen Games
General Category => AI War Classic => Topic started by: x4000 on May 06, 2010, 10:57:51 pm
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Ship Lists Now On The Wiki
It's been on my to-do list for a while to make a full list in the wiki of the ships in AI War. Recently I did that for the expansion (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_The_Zenith_Remnant), but now I've also done that for the base game (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Base_%22Fleet_Command%22_Game_Features#What_exactly_are_the_features_in_the_base_game_of_AI_War.3F), sans descriptions for most of the ships.
The Latest Ship Counts
The fact that there are 122 ships in the expansion should come as a surprise to no one, as that was one of the bulleted items on our list. But it's been a long time (maybe since 2.0 ) since I last counted the number of ships in the base game. Upon initial release of 1.0, there were about 198 or 196 -- something like that -- ships in the game. Between 1.0 and 2.0, exactly 50 ships (http://arcengames.com/aiwar_20vs10.php) happened to be added to the game, bringing it up into the 240s.
And that was the last time I did any counting, I'm pretty sure of it. Well, I counted again today, and the total is now 293 as of version 3.120. That does not include the control nodes or the modules for the modular ships -- or even cheesier stuff like the remains for the various turrets, or whatever. Including that sort of thing would have inflated the number by another 40-60 or so above even the 293 that I consider to be actual valid ships.
So, putting that together with the expansion, we're up to a whopping 415 ships in the game. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see another 50 ships as free DLC by the time the next expansion comes out, and the next expansion is likely to add somewhere in the 100-200 ships range, so by the middle of 2011 we're going to be pushing towards a total of 600-700 ships in this game.
Growing Faster Than Expected
Holy cow! My ultimate goal was to hit 1000 ships or so over the course of about 5 years and 5 expansions, but we're already at 415 ships after just the first year and the first expansion. To say that this game is growing more and more quickly than I ever imagined would be a huge understatement.
And here's why: you guys. I could never have come up with all the ideas that are represented in this game. I did come up with the majority of them, and refined pretty much all of them to at least a small degree during the process of implementation or after, but you guys have done at least as much refinement of every idea I had in here through your suggestions and feedback. Some of the ship classes that I initially designed for the 1.0 version of the game are a far cry from those initial designs now -- much more balanced and interesting and varied.
Looking to the Future
AI War has grown a ton, but there's still a lot more to do, too. The forums are practically bursting over with ideas, as everyone knows, and it's to the point where we have to do those community polls for the DLC, as you also know. Of course, each time we do an expansion we'll also churn through a lot of features more rapidly, adding huge bunches of them instead of a steady-but-significant trickle as we do with the DLC. Keith and myself both still have tons of ideas for the game, but that's nothing compared to the huge firehose of quality ideas that the community continuously submits.
In summary, I guess I'll just say that I'm blown away by you guys. Every game developer gets tons of suggestions, but somehow the suggestions here seem to be of an unusually high quality. We're all making this game together, and I think it really shows.
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I'd like to echo Chris's gratitude for all the input and feedback. Not to mention the community-gifted ship graphics and sound effects for the Riot Starship and Heavy Beam Cannon units (and tons of units in the past, those are just the two I've implemented in my time onboard), which likely would not have happened in this timeframe without those :)
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gah, and I thought I had seen at least a good chunk of what was out there... now I find out I've seen maybe half to a third :o which is pretty awesome ;D
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:o that's a lot!
Well thanks, all i could do was do my part, and we should never forget that without you we'd not have the chance to toss out all of these great ideas!
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gah, and I thought I had seen at least a good chunk of what was out there... now I find out I've seen maybe half to a third :o which is pretty awesome ;D
:) It's funny, but my three alpha testers -- who have been playing this game with me since November or December 2008, 6+ months before the game was even released, and who helped shape it into what it currently is through many different iterations before there was even AI, and whom I regularly play the game with (supposedly twice weekly, but it doesn't always work out usually because of me) -- (whew) they haven't seen everything, either. And some of the stuff that they have seen was so far back in the hazy past that they're like "EyeBots? What are those?" And even if they did remember, EyeBots are likely completely different units now, anyway, what with being useful turret bludgeons, etc.
That feeling of perpetual discovery is important to me, to say the least. I'm always running into new combinations of ships and new ways to play that I never thought of, and with the various AI additions the AI is always doing stuff I never expected it to, which is also rewarding. I like having to think on my feet, and it seems that the core playerbase for a game like this agrees (whew). Hence all the content and crazy combinations and abilities, etc.
Glad it's a hit! :)
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Glad to do my part for such an awesome game and awesome developer. :)
Here's to more success in the future!
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I'll make sprites if you guys use them ;D
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Thank you for the meticulous documentation of giving credit where its due to player concerning changes and bug fixes within the release notes.
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This last dev cycle I wasn't as meticulous about the thank-you-list, actually; I often had to run through a lot of stuff and then go back and fill in the thank-yous. I think I got most everyone but if anyone sees an inaccuracy or omission please let me know so I can fix it.
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The DLC stuff makes me feel all Total Annihilation-y inside. Loved how they released a new unit every week in-between the initial release and the expansion, and some units even after.
Truth be told, I haven't played a proper game of AI War in several weeks, but I check the forums daily. That tells something about the community. ;)
Not to mention the community-gifted ship graphics and sound effects for the Riot Starship and Heavy Beam Cannon units
I'm equally glad to hear my Heavy Beam Cannon sprites were of use. :)
This last dev cycle I wasn't as meticulous about the thank-you-list, actually; I often had to run through a lot of stuff and then go back and fill in the thank-yous. I think I got most everyone but if anyone sees an inaccuracy or omission please let me know so I can fix it.
Well, my contribution has been pretty small, but if my username could be there somewhere, that'd be nice. I plan to contribute more in future anyways, if my stuff is accepted. ;)
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Well, my contribution has been pretty small, but if my username could be there somewhere, that'd be nice. I plan to contribute more in future anyways, if my stuff is accepted. ;)
You're the first line in the release notes thank-you list ;) Or do you mean the in-game one in the credits? Chris manages that one.
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Was thinking about the credits actually. :-X
Maybe a small section of 'Miscellaneous content contributions' or something. I think that would be fair, in exchange for donating content.
Not that I'm trying to seek attention or make it seem like I've done a lot. Just one of those things that 'would be nice if'. :)
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Yeah, sorry, I try to keep those up to date when we do a major release, but yesterday was crazy and I didn't manage it. Generally for art contributions we just put people under the art section, though if there comes a time when there are hordes and hordes of those, I might need to break it out in a separate section. And for the rest of the suggestions, those go in a section of the credits where players get their name if they've had three non-bugfix suggestions. We're mostly on top of that, but there again I forgot to do it this last round, and sometimes things slip through, so if anyone thinks their name should be on there when it isn't then please let us know. I'll definitely go through the release notes and see if there are any that need to be added for the next prerelease, though.
You shouldn't need to feel bad about asking for credit for your work -- it's something we try to always make sure happens, but there are a ton of people and features here, and few of us, so sometimes we drop the ball, which is nothing personal to anyone. We'll definitely try to keep on top of it as best we can, of course, but if we do drop the ball just let us know and don't sweat it!
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Thanks. That is all understandable and well.
If there was a 'thumbs up' emote here, I'd paste one right here. ;D
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Thanks. :)
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The randomness of setups and unknown of new ships is what I love about AI War. Being able to adapt to new and changing situations is what defines the best commanders from the average ones. Too many games have a tendency to stagnate because of the same maps, same units and a playerbase that whinges whenever something changes.
I had no idea there were that many units in the game. That's incredible.
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I believe that AI Wars has grown way past any expectations; virtually breaking the genre pertaining to strategic limitations and play options that we have come to know from the past. They say the universe is constantly expanding and this game would most definitely fall parallel to that phenomenon given the scope and depth it has gained in such a relatively short period of time. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that the magnitude of AI Wars will continue to spiral upwards over time and offer an even more vast gaming experience than today; even if we can barely imagine it at present. I only wish that most games were crafted with the care and detail that have been liberally given to forge this complex game and to keep it fresh and new in the process with frequent regular updates which never cease to surprise and keep one on their toes. The value of the entire combined AI Wars package is instantly justified at the first generated campaign you play; then one can truly see how vastly the game spans with options, strategies, tactics, and surprises to keep the games epic and unique every time. I look forward to the future of this game and to keep growing along with it over time!
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I highly agree with what has been said. Your openness to change, your willingness to listen to those that love the game and the constant attention and love you've put into the game have shown. There are very few video game companies that have impressed me and blown me out of the water every time they update the game. I have a feeling I'll be playing this game more and more because its new, exciting and fresh. Nothing better than saying over ventrilo: "Oh S*** OH S*** OH S***********" every time the AI surprises Moonshine Fox and I. Few games have done that. That is a BIG kudos to you.
I support developers like you because your rare and that the industry should take a thing or two out of your book. Its a true measure of success that customers are willing to donate to your product in my opinion.
Anyway, enough love, back to work you slackers =P. Keep up the great work.
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Good work, very impressive.
I'm actually a bit concerned about your stated goal of having around 1000 ships though. That sounds like adding it for the sake of adding it, without adding much quality to the core gameplay. The good and great strategy games around have less than 20 units per 'race' and focus more on the interactions and balance between those units. I'm thinking especially Starcraft, and of the others the Warcraft series, Heroes of Might and Magic, Company of Heroes, Age of Empires series, Total war series, etc. I estimate that you're already up to about 50 distinct basic combat ship types, and I don't think you need many more. It's inevitable that the more units you have, the less unique each will be and the less balanced they will be with each other.
Yes it's fun to discover new ships or buildings every game, but that's only fun once, the first time you see it, and you can only keep that up for your players by adding more and more ships (which as argued above, doesn't add much to the game itself). Yes new ships look good on patch notes or on an expansion features list. But I would've thought to improve the game, your energies would be better spent improving the core gameplay itself.
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I'm actually a bit concerned about your stated goal of having around 1000 ships though. That sounds like adding it for the sake of adding it, without adding much quality to the core gameplay.
True, if I was hearing some developer I did not know saying something like that, I'd groan and think "they just want MOAR SHIPZ," which would be something I'd find concerning, too, and I'd immediately conclude that developer must be an idiot with no ideas about game design. To respond to that in my case, I'd point you to the following two links:
http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Design_Complexity (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Design_Complexity)
http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Design_Complexity#Why_Does_The_Game_Force_Variety_On_The_Player.3F (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Design_Complexity#Why_Does_The_Game_Force_Variety_On_The_Player.3F)
The good and great strategy games around have less than 20 units per 'race' and focus more on the interactions and balance between those units. I'm thinking especially Starcraft, and of the others the Warcraft series, Heroes of Might and Magic, Company of Heroes, Age of Empires series, Total war series, etc.
Yes, but there's a reason I don't just play one of those games -- and same for the other players who play AI War instead of them. Personally I couldn't hate the "20 units per race" more, I think it's lazy and oversimplified and just cloning past successes at this stage. It's also hugely pvp-oriented, and I don't play pvp. AI War is designed around being a co-op or solo game from the ground up, and so it takes more inspirations from games like Civ IV in terms of how it handles a tech tree, etc.
I estimate that you're already up to about 50 distinct basic combat ship types, and I don't think you need many more. It's inevitable that the more units you have, the less unique each will be and the less balanced they will be with each other.
Even in terms of CivIV, despite the fact that you have such a huge tech tree, you wind up with a build path that could be your baseline over time, which then sucks the enjoyment down for me. AI War uniquely solves that through its emphasis on variety and exploration. You can't have a sense of exploration and discovery without a ton of content, it just goes without being said. And as more content is added, you come upon multiplicative complexity, because ships can be used in concert, etc, rather than simply in isolation. Yes it makes for challenges with balance, but I think we've proved we're pretty good at handling that by now. I also disagree that the units have to become increasingly non-unique. Yes, that would be true if a single person or small group of people were designing them, but you wouldn't believe the crazy new ideas that come through the ship suggestions forum, and I think there are whole swathes of new concepts worth exploring there.
Yes it's fun to discover new ships or buildings every game, but that's only fun once, the first time you see it, and you can only keep that up for your players by adding more and more ships (which as argued above, doesn't add much to the game itself).
Well, given that it takes 120 hours of gaming at minimum just to see all the stuff in the base game, and then probably another 100 hours for the first expansion, I'd imagine that by the time you get back around to the stuff you saw at hour 1, you've mostly forgotten it. And then there's always the matter of combining ships in new ways, which leads to new strategies for you and the AI. At least, that's been my experience.
I think you'll find that AI War has captured a lot of people in solo and co-op play for far longer of a period of time than any non-4X strategy games have done before, and that most of the things you were talking about only apply in a pvp game. I'd been bouncing from RTS game to RTS game for a decade before giving up in frustration and creating AI War, so I had a pretty good idea of what I wanted by that stage in a solo/co-op context. AI War is supremely well crafted around those concepts (if I do say so myself), and comparing it to starcraft or warcraft is rather missing the point.
Yes new ships look good on patch notes or on an expansion features list. But I would've thought to improve the game, your energies would be better spent improving the core gameplay itself.
Yes, we're quite commercial and mercenary in terms of doing things for "how good they look on patch notes and release notes." As you know, our customers are told to just stuff it, and we rely on making quick-sales to teenagers who are dazzled by our amazing graphics, and boy do they feel suckered when they realize that instead we focus on depth and gameplay -- which, by the way, we never improve, and totally takes a backseat to the swarms and swarms of ships we add every week.
Okay, enough sarcasm. But I'm not even sure how to respond to that comment in any other way. Have you actually read any of our release notes? I'd have thought it is pretty clear that gameplay is our primary focus, and that ships are one way amongst many in which we expand gameplay opportunities. I guess the tendency is to assume the worst of others, and I tend to do that more than I should also, but I'd have thought that given the way we created the base game, grew it, created the expansion, and continued to grow the base game again, it would be pretty clear what our pattern of development, our goals, and so forth are. We neither flail nor add features to improve bullet points somewhere.
And yes, the models of the other strategy games works, but only in their pvp contexts, and -- let's face it -- that model has been done to death no matter how much people like it, and I think you can rest easy that a steady stream of derivative RTS games following exactly the model you cite will come out this year, next year, and probably every year for the foreseeable future. Each one prettier than the last, and more streamlined and simplified, and so on. I don't value that space, I'm not part of the target audience of that space, and I was tired of living on the fringes of that space in order to get the sort of co-op strategy I wanted. AI War takes some lessons from those games, but it mainly goes off in its own direction, and it also neatly solves a lot of the game design issues that those guys have been stuck on for the last decade. Everything has a unique niche and a real purpose, and different strategies can be arrived at in a multitude of ways... it's a far cry from a lot of those "20 'unique' units per civ" games where you wind up with many of them being just re-skins of some other faction's unit X with slightly tweaked stats.
At any rate, it's not productive for me to ramble on any further, hopefully that will clear up any confusion about our intent and design aptitude, at any rate.
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OMG another beta with new units ;D make my day Woohoo. now I just need to figure out how to have 2 independent game installs (one for the betas and one for the official version) Thanks X et all for the never ending stream of new toys.
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You bet! And you can just copy your existing installation over to a new folder and that will then be a separate install that you could use for beta purposes. AI War doesn't use the registry, which makes it super simple to make a second copy of it on your computer. :)
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Yes, but there's a reason I don't just play one of those games -- and same for the other players who play AI War instead of them. Personally I couldn't hate the "20 units per race" more, I think it's lazy and oversimplified and just cloning past successes at this stage. It's also hugely pvp-oriented, and I don't play pvp. AI War is designed around being a co-op or solo game from the ground up, and so it takes more inspirations from games like Civ IV in terms of how it handles a tech tree, etc.
That's a good point, and indeed why we have AI war, but i'd like to point out Supreme Commander Vs. Supreme Commander 2. SC had a ton of units, but only 4-7 per race were effectively used (or so i hear), and they cut it back in SC2. I feel it's for the best as then you don't have to deal with balancing mostly extraneous units which no one will use. I also bring up the point that i dislike the monotony in SC2 enough to do something about it (namely, making a mod that promotes factional and unit type differences) :)
But also as you said, that all applies to "derivative PvP RTS games", which always i have been a target audience for, i am a target audience for, and love being in the middle of ;) When you don't have to deal with players exploiting stuff against other players, you have many other options to balance units (giving AIs special counters that would be too weak or useless in player hands, etc.).
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I'm a fan of games with lots of unit choices too, and have never liked Starcraft or Warcraft, for instance. The last C&C game I somewhat liked was C&C Generals, the rest just *facepalm*.
We best not forget the mother of many-unit RTS's though, Total Annihilation. It was just recently added to digital distribution sales, and the last time I checked it was 3rd in top10 sales on Impulse. The game is almost friggin' 13 years old. Aside from maybe Starcraft, I don't see anyone playing as old RTS games like that anymore. I think that tells something about the success of the game's design. I too dare say TA is my all-time favorite, and seeing AI War release new units every once in a while makes me feel so nostalgic, remembering the early days of TA when they released a new unit every week. I couldn't wait to get home from school to add the new weekly toy to my arsenal. :D
But, this is really a matter of genre and taste. I had a similar discussion with someone just last night. I'm working on this small turn-based worms-like tank shooter (in Multimedia Fusion 2, I'm no programmer :P), which now has a measly 9 units and roughly 20 weapons in it, and one person who tested the game thought there were too many weapons. I've been planning on at least twice that many myself, but I do think I need to consider including a simplified game mode for those who prefer less choices. (Not implying anything regarding AI War though). The point is, different people like different things, and I find it hard to imagine a lot of people that like the burger RTS stuff รก la Westwood/EA and Blizzard are fans of AI War. And it'd be a fool's errand to try and please fans of both types of gamers. I sincerely hope AI War focuses on the 'lots of content, so there's always something new' formula in future as well. If I want to play something I know through and through already, I'll go play something else. When I want to explore and be surprised, AI War will provide that.
And let's not forget, AI War can always keep most of its additional content in expansion packs, so if you don't want your arsenal to increase, just don't use the expansions! :) I think the core game without Zenith Remnant is great fun already.
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I played TA for 3 years then played TA spring (http://springrts.com/) for 4 years, so I am all about the total annhilation, and if there is one thing that TA realises it is that so long as they are all different, there is no such thing as too many units.
My fav TA mod added 4000 units. you never, ever saw everything ;D
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I think you guys pretty well summed up a lot of it nicely. If you're wanting additional info, I've added a rather long post to the Design Philosophy section of the wiki, which will hopefully answer any further questions about why the AI has the tempo, basically: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Controlling_The_Tempo (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Controlling_The_Tempo)
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My fav TA mod added 4000 units. you never, ever saw everything ;D
There might've been a few made by me in there, considering the amount. :P I made dozens of custom units over all those years of the original TA, and a few mods, none of which were ever really quite finished though.
Good times altogether. Fun game, fun modding. :D
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My fav TA mod added 4000 units. you never, ever saw everything ;D
There might've been a few made by me in there, considering the amount. :P I made dozens of custom units over all those years of the original TA, and a few mods, none of which were ever really quite finished though.
Good times altogether. Fun game, fun modding. :D
yeah it was a complimation of pretty much everything off unit universe.com
where TA had t1, t2 and a single t3 unit, this mod went upto about t7, and the final teir units were just ridiculous (one them them was a huuuge flying fortress that had auto-firing dguns, lool)
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Flying Fortress with d-gun, eh. Ohhh-kay then.
Well, shamelessly pluggin' my old TA site: http://unlimited.tauniverse.com
Just in case you want to see if something was done by me or whatnot. Horrible looking site. *runs away in shame*
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(one them them was a huuuge flying fortress that had auto-firing dguns, lool)
Is there a video of that on youtube? Would love to see it...
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Seconded. ;D
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Flying Fortress with d-gun, eh. Ohhh-kay then.
Well, shamelessly pluggin' my old TA site: http://unlimited.tauniverse.com
Just in case you want to see if something was done by me or whatnot. Horrible looking site. *runs away in shame*
wait, hitman, are you telling me YOU made the original Janus model? I have microed Janus against flash tanks for maybe 500 hours of my life, if that is your model I absolutely salute you
I'll try and find the mod with the flying fortress, it had some absolutelty ballin stuff in. the absolutel chaos mech, the nuclear cannon, the railgun, ufos, t5 mechs, flying transports that units could shoot out of, a cannon that fired peewees ;D
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Holy shit, it was you!
you should drop into TA spring sometime and check out all your models in 3D with reflectivity, shadows and lightning ;D Janus is a T1 unit in balanced annihlation, remake of uberhack from OTA
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Ahh, yes, Janus is indeed mine. :D
I tried TA Spring ages ago, but I guess it's changed since those times. Seemed like a work-in-progress thing back then. :P
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TA spring is pretty proffesional now, definately merits a check out
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just seen the AI using a ship i hadn't seen before: the warbird starship
40 simultanious shots? fffuuuuuu
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just seen the AI using a ship i hadn't seen before: the warbird starship
40 simultanious shots? fffuuuuuu
Ai used them against Fox and I in our last game as an insult to the fact that we were getting steamrolled. We were very surprised though to see these ships.
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more ships and building make game more better
i only wish now for a build menu like on RED ALERT :D :D :P