Shield Bearers/Wormhole Guard Posts/etc can shoot?

[RCIX]

I noticed that stuff like wormhole guard posts can shoot, as well as things like shield bearers where their primary use isn't the weapons and you'd never really build them (or the ai would never really spawn them) for the weapons.

It's clear that they probably don't *need* the weaponry, since so much stuff just doesn't have any weapons, but why do they have some?

(possibly part of a continuing series of "why is X the way it is")

[TechSY730]

For sheild bearers, it's so they can be treated as military. If they didn't have guns, they would be treated as non military, which would cause some odd behaviour for both the humans and the AI. Though the human odd behaviour could partially worked around by making the shield bearers "brave" (that is, use similar selection behaviour as brave scout starships) it wouldn't fix all unit management quirks, and it wouldn't fix the AIs treatment if them.


For the wormhole guard posts/passive guard posts/etc. thing, it's mostly a "hack" to ensure that AI ships on stand-by mode will "wake up", as they are keyed to wake up when the thing they are guarding fires its weapon at something within the "guarding range", which is actually smaller than the range of some guard posts, strangely. (The other primary way to wake up a group of defenders is to shoot at or destroy any of the defenders or what they are defending) This is why sometimes you will be able to sometimes "sneak up" on a command station without its defenders waking up, as there is nothing of the AIs to fire to trigger the group to check whether they should wake up, and human ships by default won't auto-target "non-alerted" AI stuff to prevent things like long-ranged ships from waking up the whole planet by being too eager to shoot (and thus free) stuff.

[Faulty Logic]

I think this is mainly because the military/civilian ship categorization takes has_a_gun() as its main criterion.

Edit: ninja'd.

[RCIX]

For shied bearers, it's so they can be treated as military. If they didn't have guns, they would be treated as non military, which would cause some odd behaviour for both the humans and the AI. Though the human odd behaviour could partially worked around by making the shield bearers "brave" (that is, use similar selection behaviour as brave scout starships) it wouldn't fix all unit management quirks, and it wouldn't fix the AIs treatment if them.

(more to come)

Does that explain why my Spirecraft Attritioners and Shieldbearers refuse to group with my fleet? Maybe we need a "treat this as military anyway" flag...

[Faulty Logic]

Yes. You need to use the control key to get them to come. For martyrs, too.

[TechSY730]

There are a few unit management problems that even a "Treat as military anyways" flag won't fix (though all of them fixable)
One, when you give a order to a non-military unit to attack something (indirectly by having other things selected than can attack it), instead of "decaying" it into a move order (with the proper "modifiers" copied over, like group move or whatever), or continuing to do what they were already doing, they will instead skip that order all together, often times meaning they will sit there and do nothing.
(In fact, this sort of thing is a problem in general, see 6511: How ships behave when given orders they cannot handle is inconsistent)

Similarly, when the AI tells a non-military unit to guard something, non-military units won't guard properly, and instead are "freed". But as they are not military, they will not show up under the freed ship count, nor will the AI send them along in offensive actions it tries to do with threat.

[Bognor]

The other case when token weaponry can be significant is when they prevent things being repaired.  The Wormhole Guard Posts' guns can interfere with maintaining a beachhead, for example.

[Lancefighter]

The other case when token weaponry can be significant is when they prevent things being repaired.  The Wormhole Guard Posts' guns can interfere with maintaining a beachhead, for example.

Any sufficient beachhead could just murder them. I mean sure, it means a fair deal of wasted time.. but depending on the situation it could be huge. It also means the ai wont reinforce that wormhole.

[Ozymandiaz]

I noticed that stuff like wormhole guard posts can shoot, as well as things like shield bearers where their primary use isn't the weapons and you'd never really build them (or the ai would never really spawn them) for the weapons.

It's clear that they probably don't *need* the weaponry, since so much stuff just doesn't have any weapons, but why do they have some?

(possibly part of a continuing series of "why is X the way it is")

I guess bearers don't need weapons, but I like some extra firepower . But for balancing and flavor I guess just having the shields could work well.

[Hearteater]

It would be kind of cool if Shield Bearer attack damage went up as their health went down.  It would make my low health Shield Bearers feel more useful.  Because unlike most units, Shield Bearers are less effective the lower their health.

[Nodor]

The other case when token weaponry can be significant is when they prevent things being repaired.  The Wormhole Guard Posts' guns can interfere with maintaining a beachhead, for example.

Any sufficient beachhead could just murder them. I mean sure, it means a fair deal of wasted time.. but depending on the situation it could be huge. It also means the ai wont reinforce that wormhole.

And that wasted time is why I want to thank Keith for making wormhole guardposts not worth XP for champion units.