Semi-Poll: Increased AIP for indestructible capturables?

[keith.lamothe]

I think giving mkIV ships a 4 second (8 second in enemy territory) warp-paralysis and mkV ships total immunity to warp-paralysis could actually be a really neat way to buff those for human usage.

You could "abuse" it by porting m+c directly into ships right in the enemy's face, but just getting IV/V capability isn't easy and the m+c costs mean you couldn't keep it up very long (at high output) unless you had an incredible economy.

And yes, the mkV neinzul self-attrit could come back then.

[Kahuna]

Would this AIP increase occur when capturing or only when rebuilding?

[keith.lamothe]

Would this AIP increase occur when capturing or only when rebuilding?

Only when rebuilding.  So if you just ignore the remains left when its destroyed the situation is exactly what it is now.

Though I think we've moved past the AIP-to-rebuild option because it doesn't really help the underlying problems.  Though I guess it's not totally off the table.

[_K_]

As if you couldn't just load the latest autosave and do things differently lulz.

Save scumming is for (removed). Does that count as profanity? I am not very sure.

(mod edit: in this case it comes across as a sort of sexually-related slur, so I'd rather we not use that here)
(K edit: aight)

[Vyndicu]

Seeing that I often play with exo-waves on and often play with fallen spire campaign on. I approve of any changes to make fab/ASC/etc.. more useful somehow. It was always if fab/ASC/etc... happens to be behind my chokehold then they are automatic taken for the benefit of a larger defending blob fleet due to RNG not any other factors. If they were not behind a chokehold then I treat them as either untouchable or something I could have gain a short term benefit before dying before any changes.

So I am looking forward to this changes if it indeed does change. I would like them to be somehow more useful regardless of any RNG factor to it's location.

Another idea:

Perhaps 20 AIP on capture but give human player a way to continue to rebuild the mk4/mk5 version at a higher cost (build time, resource cost, high shipyard energy cost?) at another structure? You can build mk4/mk5 at adv. fab/fab/ASC at 5 to 10 min range but at this structure it would take 20 min somewhere else for an example? That way you are still incentives to take and hold it for faster build rate but still can continue to benefit somehow after an exo-wave kill it. Make this structure "immune" to assist building from engineers.

What do people think of that?

[Kahuna]

@Kahuna: on the placement of these in-system, they already specifically avoid being put near wormholes (exactly how far depends on how intractable the wormhole placement is).  Where do you actually want them to go?  On the inner grav ring and such that distance-to-nearest-wormhole is maximized?

Well..
A couple of examples

Bad ones

This one is horrible to defend.. and it doesn't seem like the Fabricator is even trying to avoid the wormholes


The Fabricator is a bit too close to the 2 wormholes.


Hmm.. looks a bit nasty. Whatever it's possible to defend that AF or not depends on how the adjacent planets are positioned.


Good ones

The Fabricator is in a pretty good spot. If I neutered Phi Tau and could make sure Exos and CPAs can't come trough Phi Tau wormhole the Advanced Factory would be in a perfect spot.


Perfect spot. Nuff said.

[Faulty Logic]

1) For all AdvFact, ASC, and Fabs (let me know if I left out something you'd want included; I think ZPGs are better as-is).

2) Make them leave remains.  The construction costs would be non-trivial but not absurd.  I'm thinking 100k total m+c for a fab, and 200k total m+c for an AdvFact or ASC.

3) Give them AIP-upon-being-rebuilt.  This wouldn't be exactly the same mechanic as golems-medium uses since they wouldn't be metamorphosing on repair but instead on rebuild.  The AIP cost would probably happen as soon as the rebuild beam turned them back from remains into the under-construction-with-half-health thing.  Anyway I think I'd probably do +10 AIP on the AdvFact and ASC, and +2 AIP on the fabs.

4) Make them never be automatically be targeted for rebuilding, these would always need to be a conscious decision.

... and done, right?  That would actually take me less than an hour, probably.

This sounds like a nice solution.

Anyway, my thoughts on the above idea:

Cons:

- I can totally see Faulty Logic running wild this.  AIP means nothing to him when he's coming in for the final attack run   Wait until the final battle is possible, drop a mob of engies to rebuild the wrecks and (popping distro nodes if necessary) turbo-build their stuff to cap and rush rush rush the homeworlds through the thermal bloom of all those warheads.

My cheese-fu is way ahead of you. I take fabricator-produced ships, put them in cold storage, and only take them out for the HW assaults. AIP may mean nothing, but I need metal and crystal to build those warheads, and replace my fleet.

[Kahuna]

As if you couldn't just load the latest autosave and do things differently lulz.

Save scumming is for (removed). Does that count as profanity? I am not very sure.

(mod edit: in this case it comes across as a sort of sexually-related slur, so I'd rather we not use that here)

Sometimes the best way to learn is to load an autosave and try again and there's a difference between loading an autosave and save scumming.

Also.. in my eyes your IQ just dropped by ~5.

[keith.lamothe]

If one plays on 10/10, savescumming is totally fair game.  Someone actually ironmanning a serious 10/10 game... that'd take some neutronium nerves.

[Faulty Logic]

If one plays on 10/10, savescumming is totally fair game.  Someone actually ironmanning a serious 10/10 game... that'd take some neutronium nerves.

AHHH, my nervous system just sank through the rest of my body! And doesn't conduct electicity!

I may have to try that at some point, but I think luck would factor in too much.

[keith.lamothe]

Well, if you're still relying on electrons to carrying your internal message traffic, then duh

[Winge]

Would this AIP increase occur when capturing or only when rebuilding?

Only when rebuilding.  So if you just ignore the remains left when its destroyed the situation is exactly what it is now.

Though I think we've moved past the AIP-to-rebuild option because it doesn't really help the underlying problems.  Though I guess it's not totally off the table.

I would almost prefer +AIP to capture but not to rebuild.  It makes more sense that the AI would be worried about capturing the Factory than rebuilding it.  There should be a very significant economic cost for rebuilding the fabricator/factory, though.  I'm still of the opinion that the current situation is better than most of the options I've heard so far.

As if you couldn't just load the latest autosave and do things differently lulz.

My thoughts as well.  Although sometimes those autosaves are in horrible places.  Which is why I started manually saving a lot 

If one plays on 10/10, savescumming is totally fair game.  Someone actually ironmanning a serious 10/10 game... that'd take some neutronium nerves.

Would arcanite be an acceptable substitute?

[contingencyplan]

Regarding Fabs (not FacIVs), I get the sense that most of y'all don't consider them particularly valuable in and of themselves. At most they're captured as a side effect, a cap is built, and then brought out at the end of the game.

Going off Vyndicu's idea, instead of capturing a fab, why not have a uber-expensive, low-cap "Experimental Dock" that can be built anywhere, and make the Fabs instead unlock the corresponding ship? Just get rid of constructing the ships at that point altogether, since they're not doing their "job" of increasing the strategic value of the planet.

If this needs to be counter-balanced somehow (beyond the high cost of the Experimental Dock), here's some ideas:

• Increase the costs of the ships.
• edit: Have a fairly high Knowledge cost to unlock the Experimental Dock (say 6k?).
• Keep the Fabs as constructors, but permit a "Fab Hacker" ship to unlock the corresponding ship (perhaps before the world is captured). This could have the same effect as other forms of hacking, or it could increase threat, or something similar.
• The corresponding ship is unlocked for the AI as well.

Still thinking about FacIVs, but figured I'd toss this into the ring.

[orzelek]

As for factories IV - I really rarely regarded them as useful in FS games - fleet ships don't matter that much unless you hit something nice.
And now we have starship IV - that one would be actually useful. But holding onto that Mk IV starship could be tricky and fab won't survive so it goes onto the shelf along with normal fab IV.

How doable would be the fact that capturing Fab IV would reduce your knowledge cost for neinzul enclave Mk IV. And maybe then add similar way of producing starships Mk IV. It could work per fab captured even to benefit from capturing both and for example being able to hold them for some time.
I'm going by the assumption that you would use this when you have no way of defending any of them so you would pay for that in AIP but gain a bit of knowledge. Still currently neinzul enclave is a bit absurd at 14000 knowledge and I doubt it sees any use.

[chemical_art]

And the approach that finally worked for golems doesn't sound particularly good here.  Losing an AdvFact to an exo, and then getting an exo for rebuilding it might be amusing to me and some players, but...

Late to reply, but I think if you made it so that the AI somehow attacks harder temporarily in responding to rebuilding a factory, that would be fine.