Scout Picket buildings

[Wanderer]

To stop from derailing another thread...

On this note, I've been debating a new building proposal. 

Basically, it stems from the fact that after picketing a decent number of systems, you're forced to go to Scout III fleetships if you want to continue scouting the universe, even if you've nerfed every planet you can see.

What I'd like to see is the ability to build a 'scout relay' building.  Basically, something that could replace your picketed scout fleetship and release it back to normal duty.  This would require getting a mobile builder into the system and setting up something the equivalent of a scout I fighter that can't move.  It would basically just handle scout duties and hide under its cloak.  Oh, and these DON'T need supply, by their very nature.

Make it 5 minutes to build or something equivalently rediculous so you can only place it on nerfed planets/in protected buildspace, and you'll remove the majority of the cheese you could do.

I just want my scouts back and I DON'T want to have to pay 2,250 K for another cap of them if I want to keep pickets up in the galaxy.

Opinions?  I mention it here because usually my Engineers are very busy and don't have time to take a trip to the outer reaches of nowhere, but those dedicated builders are more then welcome to take a flight.  Of course, with 5 minute build times they might need Engis anyway but that's another story.  A small protection fleet could work equivalently well.

Sounds good, especially if the energy cost is low.  Picketing with Scout II and especially Scout IIIs is brutal.  Call it a Recon Station/Platform maybe?

I rather like that idea as well. Although rather then builders, why don't we have the scout star ships deploy into them like a colony ship does?

I rather like that idea as well. Although rather then builders, why don't we have the scout star ships deploy into them like a colony ship does?

Probably to avoid being able to just plant one of these on any planet you can reach with a scout.

Although there's a valid question of whether that would actually be a problem or not. Once you've got a scout on a planet and cloaked in a corner somewhere, they are effectively safe there for the rest of the game.

I don't see why any scout unit couldn't have a one shot ability that destroys the scout but drops a cloaked 'scouting beacon' or some such thing. Although really in that case all we're asking for is a higher cap of scouts in order to be able to picket every planet in the galaxy. So then the question really is whether scout caps are some finely balanced game mechanic, or just a number that was tossed in because hey why not? I assume it's not intentionally balanced around anything, since changing the number of systems in your galaxy doesn't change your scout caps either direction. So a 40 planet game you can easily picket every planet, but a 120 planet game it's numerically impossible to do so. I don't think it really throws off the balance either way to allow higher scout caps or to allow scouts to turn into immobile beacons and free up cap space. But I could be overlooking something?

Now that we've thoroughly hijacked and derailed this topic, discussion can begin.

Discuss.

[BobTheJanitor]

Edit: Oh sure edit that info into the first post. I'm leaving it here anyway just to be obstinate. My point is so good it needs to be read twice!

ctrl+c ctrl+v

I don't see why any scout unit couldn't have a one shot ability that destroys the scout but drops a cloaked 'scouting beacon' or some such thing. Although really in that case all we're asking for is a higher cap of scouts in order to be able to picket every planet in the galaxy. So then the question really is whether scout caps are some finely balanced game mechanic, or just a number that was tossed in because hey why not? I assume it's not intentionally balanced around anything, since changing the number of systems in your galaxy doesn't change your scout caps either direction. So a 40 planet game you can easily picket every planet, but a 120 planet game it's numerically impossible to do so. I don't think it really throws off the balance either way to allow higher scout caps or to allow scouts to turn into immobile beacons and free up cap space. But I could be overlooking something?

[keith.lamothe]

I'm inclined towards having the mobile builder do it so it's harder to plant a picket that way, but if you pull it off you've got a "free" (in cap terms, and I wouldn't make the e-cost punitive) picket.

If the scout starships could do it that would be a bit easier than I'd want it to be.

[TechSY730]

Edit: Oh sure edit that info into the first post. I'm leaving it here anyway just to be obstinate. My point is so good it needs to be read twice!

ctrl+c ctrl+v

I don't see why any scout unit couldn't have a one shot ability that destroys the scout but drops a cloaked 'scouting beacon' or some such thing. Although really in that case all we're asking for is a higher cap of scouts in order to be able to picket every planet in the galaxy. So then the question really is whether scout caps are some finely balanced game mechanic, or just a number that was tossed in because hey why not? I assume it's not intentionally balanced around anything, since changing the number of systems in your galaxy doesn't change your scout caps either direction. So a 40 planet game you can easily picket every planet, but a 120 planet game it's numerically impossible to do so. I don't think it really throws off the balance either way to allow higher scout caps or to allow scouts to turn into immobile beacons and free up cap space. But I could be overlooking something?

Scout caps do have a balance point. Thanks to their cloak boosting mechanic, more scouts means the more likely it is a group of them can make it through a planet even in the face of units with tachyon beams. So if you could build, say, 50 of them, getting at least one scout to a distant planet would be easier than, say, 30 scouts. Aka, it influences how deep you can scout, which is (mostly) independent of how many planets there are total.

[Hearteater]

I agree with Keith, freeing up scout cap is valuable and shouldn't be too easy.

As a side note, would upping Scout I and Scout II speeds to match Mark III be considered?  It is so annoying to scout with a mixed group because they disperse that I find it basically pointless unless I heavily micro them.  If I group move them, they all slow down to Scout I speed which is a net decrease in survivability, especially when one stupid Scout I survives, slowing down all the remaining Mark IIs and IIIs.

[TechSY730]

I agree with Keith, freeing up scout cap is valuable and shouldn't be too easy.

As a side note, would upping Scout I and Scout II speeds to match Mark III be considered?  It is so annoying to scout with a mixed group because they disperse that I find it basically pointless unless I heavily micro them.  If I group move them, they all slow down to Scout I speed which is a net decrease in survivability, especially when one stupid Scout I survives, slowing down all the remaining Mark IIs and IIIs.

Could the same be done for the scout starships Mk. I - III as well? That way making a full cap of all the scout ships can easily group move together without slowing each other down or splitting up.

[PokerChen]

Hmmm... survivability via speed itself is a good encouragement to upgrade your scouts, not just the numbers one can field. Not really for this one.

A 'listening post' might serve just fine. The only time you'd lose a scout would be from planet-wide tachyon blasts, or maybe an EMP guardian. I would probably prefer to pay a larger cost in terms of build-time rather than a continuous resource drain - it's meant to be cloaked and hiding under the AIs' sensors.

Humans constructing elaborate cloaking devices that might fail in an emergency... sounds familiar. I can only wish they spend more time designing better fighter/bombers instead.

[Wanderer]

Mantis link here:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=8906

[Martyn van Buren]

I suggested this on this Mantis ticket, but how about a unit that works a bit like a mobile repair station --- i.e., it scouts and cloaks, but can't cloak for ~30s after moving?  You could easily place those on neutered worlds, but you'd have to use some military ships to get them onto other worlds.  Possibly not allowed in transports, but that might make them too useless.

[Wanderer]

I suggested this on this Mantis ticket, but how about a unit that works a bit like a mobile repair station --- i.e., it scouts and cloaks, but can't cloak for ~30s after moving?  You could easily place those on neutered worlds, but you'd have to use some military ships to get them onto other worlds.  Possibly not allowed in transports, but that might make them too useless.

The entire idea behind this is that it will be capless.  I'm not sure any mobile ship would be allowed to have an uncapped volume.

[Martyn van Buren]

Well, that said, if it had a cap of even 30, let alone 50-60, would you ever want more than that?

[keith.lamothe]

The entire idea behind this is that it will be capless.  I'm not sure any mobile ship would be allowed to have an uncapped volume.

As far as uncapped: transports, science ships (which may even have a scout flag, I forget), etc.

Long ago, also colony ships.  But someone tried to conquer the universe with them and we had to stop it

[Martyn van Buren]

Are transports uncapped?  Somehow I thought they had one.

[keith.lamothe]

That said, I'm not in favor of an uncapped mobile, cloaked scout, however slow it may be... though actually it would work if it wouldn't cloak until stationary for 30 seconds, I suppose.  Though it would probably have to be cannot-be-put-in-a-transport to avoid exploits there.

Basically I'm fine with you being able to "free-picket" a planet if you cause enough of a ruckus there to keep them from killing the picketer (whether this hypothetical one or a mobile builder and whatever it builds) for a certain period of time.  That adds an extra layer of challenge that justifies the advantage of saving on scout cap.

[BobTheJanitor]

That said, I'm not in favor of an uncapped mobile, cloaked scout, however slow it may be... though actually it would work if it wouldn't cloak until stationary for 30 seconds, I suppose.  Though it would probably have to be cannot-be-put-in-a-transport to avoid exploits there.

Wouldn't the result of that just be that everything on the planet chases the transport, blows it up, and then the soft squishy picket ship pops out and can't cloak for 30 seconds while the whole population hammers on it? I'm not very good at thinking up exploits, apparently.