Save-scumming / Mastery of time-travel

[Shrugging Khan]

The AI likes players like you

And I like the AI.

We're like a regular married couple, really.

[BobTheJanitor]

I abuse it pretty readily, I admit. Ironically, I'm also a big proponent of adding an optional ironman permadeath mode. Maybe I have such bad self control that I need to have the option completely taken away from me?

I actually really like this idea. I read about it before, but never put much thought into it until now. I'd defenitely would play most of my games with the permadeath option on. As _K_ said, being able to savescum makes you careless sometimes. If it wasn't for savescumming, I would not have won my hybrid game. I prefer learning the hard way.

I don't understand the visceral reactions you sometimes get against permadeath in games. Especially in this case, since it would be entirely optional and no one would make you check that box when you start your game. But in general, people seem to love it or hate it with a burning hatred. I'd never really messed around with any roguelikes, which is of course the main place you'll see permadeath, until Dungeons of Dredmor came along, and then I found that it was a ton of fun. It really does make you think over your moves, and be a lot more involved in the game when you know there's no way to erase a mistake. It gives the game an edge and a bit of excitement that you can't get otherwise.

[Shrugging Khan]

I never understood the need for a permadeath option or an ironman mode. It's already there!

You lose, you quit, you don't reload. You delete your save to be safe.

That's just about two clicks, one of which you'd make anyways eventually, and one click you do explicitly not make. Effort does not get much smaller than voluntary ironman.

[HellishFiend]

Depends on the person. Voluntary effort can be the most impossible kind for some people!

[PokerChen]

I never understood the need for a permadeath option or an ironman mode. It's already there!

You lose, you quit, you don't reload. You delete your save to be safe.

That's just about two clicks, one of which you'd make anyways eventually, and one click you do explicitly not make. Effort does not get much smaller than voluntary ironman.

It's called self-control, and AI-war is like crack to an optimiser. We don't game the game - we game the system. The game itself is an enjoyable extra, and playing ironman makes us enjoy just the game.

[keith.lamothe]

I never understood the need for a permadeath option or an ironman mode. It's already there!

You lose, you quit, you don't reload. You delete your save to be safe.

That's just about two clicks, one of which you'd make anyways eventually, and one click you do explicitly not make. Effort does not get much smaller than voluntary ironman.

Psychology.

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I never understood the need for a permadeath option or an ironman mode. It's already there!

You lose, you quit, you don't reload. You delete your save to be safe.

That's just about two clicks, one of which you'd make anyways eventually, and one click you do explicitly not make. Effort does not get much smaller than voluntary ironman.

Psychology.

What Keith said. 

King

[Shrugging Khan]

You all are WEAK! 

[keith.lamothe]

You all are WEAK! 

True

[Eternaly_Lost]

You all are WEAK! 

True

Does that mean we are not only going to get Ironman mode, but you are going to add an achievement for beating the Fallen Spire campaign in Ironman mode versus 2 everything 10 AIs, each with +300%?

Could such a thing even be done? Or is it at that point where you can say that if you can beat that you should retire from the game as nothing can stop you.

[keith.lamothe]

Does that mean we are not only going to get Ironman mode

I would like to do that if I can come up with a reasonable approach to determining which file to delete, and convince the OS to let me.

but you are going to add an achievement for beating the Fallen Spire campaign in Ironman mode versus 2 everything 10 AIs, each with +300%?

I'd get a real kick out of adding that achievement, but when I added the one to Tidalis where you had to get a total stream travel time equal to the literal distance between the earth and the moon, some folks really objected to that.  Basically having unachievable achievements doesn't rub people the right way   (that Tidalis one was nerfed by reinterpreting stream travel distance units)

Could such a thing even be done?

I really, really hope not.  You'd have to hack the game.  Even if it was non-Ironman vs 10/10 Everything AIs (take Fallen Spire or not, as you please), I just don't see how it's mathematically possible without disabling waves or some other obviously-bypassing-the-challenge lobby-settings tomfoolery.

Or is it at that point where you can say that if you can beat that you should retire from the game as nothing can stop you.

At that point you should wake up from the dream

[Wanderer]

I really, really hope not.  You'd have to hack the game.  Even if it was non-Ironman vs 10/10 Everything AIs (take Fallen Spire or not, as you please), I just don't see how it's mathematically possible without disabling waves or some other obviously-bypassing-the-challenge lobby-settings tomfoolery.

Theoretically possible against a pair of shield ninnies.  Your biggest threat will be raid backlash and CPAs.  Play with minimal AIP style and you should be able to hold your front door, particularly if you luck out and pull a SuperTerminal.  Most likely you'll stalemate however, as you'll reach an eventual point where your econ literally can't get you enough ships to make progress.

However, if you're willing to go the other way, and do a galaxy level glassing... HMMMMmmmmm....  I could see some opportunities there.  You'd have to be aiming for a 7-8 hour game though.  You literally could never let the AI dig in anywhere.

[keith.lamothe]

I really, really hope not.  You'd have to hack the game.  Even if it was non-Ironman vs 10/10 Everything AIs (take Fallen Spire or not, as you please), I just don't see how it's mathematically possible without disabling waves or some other obviously-bypassing-the-challenge lobby-settings tomfoolery.

Theoretically possible against a pair of shield ninnies.

That's why I said "Everything AIs"   I saw that one coming.

[PokerChen]

You all are WEAK! 

Eh. At least the "pills" that I take aren't ILLEGAL. ;P

[Nice Save]

I never save scum. A lot of the time I quit and start again when I'm doing fine, never mind losing.