Author Topic: Running on 6 cylinders  (Read 2712 times)

Offline Haagenti

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Running on 6 cylinders
« on: September 04, 2009, 05:04:57 am »
I'm playing a 1.201 game now against two AI-8s.

With difficulty and an almost perfect map, I can run my parasite empire off 6 planets now. The energy is much better balanced than it used to be. I was skeptical at first about this whole Energy stuff, but it worked out fine.

I'm not at all sure of victory though: the Vicious Raider AI sends these 1500 ship EtherJet raids which are *truly* dangerous as they can take a fairly large fleet completely apart.
Nerfer of EtherJets, Lightning Turrets, Parasites, Raiders, Low Automatic Progress and Deep Raids (to name the most important)

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Offline Ashery

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2009, 05:33:25 am »
1500? :x

Only time I got even near that was when I had yet to take the planets surrounding my captive settlement, and even then it was only 650odd parasites (That got completely massacred, heh. This was with two 7.6 random moderates).

One thing I'm a bit disappointed by, though, is that waves are of only one type of ship, allowing them to be very easily countered.

Offline liq3

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2009, 05:44:19 am »

One thing I'm a bit disappointed by, though, is that waves are of only one type of ship, allowing them to be very easily countered.
There's a setting before the game starts called "schizofrenic AI" or something like that, that makes the waves mixed.

Offline Ashery

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2009, 07:22:13 am »

One thing I'm a bit disappointed by, though, is that waves are of only one type of ship, allowing them to be very easily countered.
There's a setting before the game starts called "schizofrenic AI" or something like that, that makes the waves mixed.

XD

Nice.

Not that it matters, though, as after I tested the game with two 8.6 AI's, Bully + Raider, my friend and I decided to just restart before we wasted more than 40minutes, heh. Those damn 85 speed stealth autocannons are an absolute pony. Didn't help that there were 450 of them :x

Offline Haagenti

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2009, 07:40:28 am »
If you have time, you have to show me how a wave of 1000+ EtherJets is "very easily countered". They are fast and cloaked, and they can overwhelm a 500 ship fleet quite easily.

The schizo raids are kinda hard to counter when they reach massive size (Vicious Raider has double-sized waves). Not at all sure whether that is do-able.

At this moment in my game, I'm using 150 Short Range III and 100 MLRS II under 5 II Forcefields on my one external wormhole to stop raids. "Normal" 500-1000 ship raids are mowed down like chaff. But the setup almost buckled under an onslaught of 3 raids and a 800 ship III cross-planet raid all hitting at the same time. And it's still early in the game.

As my AI level is now 170, I need to find Data Centers badly, as there are two milestones coming up:
- AI 200 will give the enemy an additional ship type. If these are infiltrators or space tanks I have a serious problem.
- AI 240 will cause all raids to upgrade to II ships. And IIs are in general MUCH better than Is

but alas, my other opponent is Counterspy and I have no clue yet where they are, even though there are 18 of them. All that my recon-in-force fleet seems to see are Ion Cannons and Forcefields.
Nerfer of EtherJets, Lightning Turrets, Parasites, Raiders, Low Automatic Progress and Deep Raids (to name the most important)

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

Offline x4000

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2009, 09:16:28 am »
Very cool, Haagenti.  That looks like an efficient setup, and it doesn't seem at all abusive.

Ashery, by the way -- the AI waves that are all one type are that way so that you specifically can work toward countering them.  This is akin to a lot of tower defense games.  If it's too easy, then you're probably on too low of a difficulty.  But, that said, a number of expert players prefer playing with Schizophrenic on, so if that's what you prefer then that's cool too!  We aim to please. :)
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Offline Haagenti

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2009, 10:02:00 am »
BTW X, a few questions related to the things above:

1) If the AI hits 200 and gets a new ship, does this ship somehow disappear (or the AI can't build any) if the AI goes below 200?

2) What happens if the AI goes over 200, then below, then over 200 again?

3) Same for when it goes over 240 and sends out level II ships. Can this be brought down to I again?

4) I'm in a 80 planet game (with 79 unknown planets). There are 18 Data Centers, 5 Libraries and 2 factories. I have searched through 15 of the 79 unknowns and found none. The probability of this, given a random distribution, is lower than 1 in 1.000.000. So I suspect the distribution may not be random. Are the goodies somehow distributed further away from me?
Nerfer of EtherJets, Lightning Turrets, Parasites, Raiders, Low Automatic Progress and Deep Raids (to name the most important)

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

Offline x4000

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2009, 10:25:44 am »
BTW X, a few questions related to the things above:

Sure thing!

1) If the AI hits 200 and gets a new ship, does this ship somehow disappear (or the AI can't build any) if the AI goes below 200?

Nope, that's the one thing that is irreversible.  But having a new ship type doesn't give it more volume of ships, it just spreads out the ships that it reinforces with into more ship types, if that makes sense.  So it doesn't increase the difficulty unless the ship type itself is more difficult.

2) What happens if the AI goes over 200, then below, then over 200 again?

I had to check to see, actually.  This is probably the only property that is affected by positive AI progress only, actually.  In other words, the game keeps track of the total positive and negative AI Progress modifiers, and the negative are completely ignored for when the AI unlocks new ship types.  So even if you have +200 AI Progress and -100 negative AI progess, showing a total of 100 AI progress on your screen, you'll see the AI getting new ship types after that point.  Here again it's not so much a question of difficulty usually, unlike the actual numbers of ships built, and the tech level of the ships built, both of which are affected by the total effective AI Progress (100 from my example).

As an added note, part of why the game keeps track of the negative and positive components of the AI progress is for having an internal lower bound without ever wasting datacenters.  For example, here are the cap levels:

>= 100, cap 30
>= 150, cap 40
>= 200, cap 50
>= 250, cap 60
>= 300, cap 70
>= 350, cap 80
>= 400, cap 90
>= 450, cap 100

So what that's telling you is that if your internal, non-adjusted AI Progress is 100 or more, you can never reduce the effective AI Progress below 30.  But!  If you kill so many datacenters that it would draw it below the cap, don't worry about that wasting your efforts.  There is never a reason to delay killing a datacenter.  It's true that in those circumstances the datacenter killing would have no immediate effect, but the next time your AI Progress would be increased, the prior datacenter reduction will keep it snapped to that cap level (assuming the cap level doesn't bump up to a new height).


3) Same for when it goes over 240 and sends out level II ships. Can this be brought down to I again?

Yes, this can get brought back down to I.  Same as with the relative volume of ships in waves and reinforcements.  Any existing waves/reinforcements of higher volume/tech level won't be affected, but new ones will be back at the prior level.

4) I'm in a 80 planet game (with 79 unknown planets). There are 18 Data Centers, 5 Libraries and 2 factories. I have searched through 15 of the 79 unknowns and found none. The probability of this, given a random distribution, is lower than 1 in 1.000.000. So I suspect the distribution may not be random. Are the goodies somehow distributed further away from me?

Yes, there is some logic in that for data centers in particular.  Data Centers will be at least three hops away from you, and the majority of them are always clustered on the planets nearest to the AI home planets (these are the "core" AI planets).  Figure that half or more will be on the core planets, depending on the map, and the rest will be scattered around not just directly near you.

For the advanced factories and research stations, those are also going to be at least three hops away from you in most cases, but they won't ever be on core or home AI planets.  Their distribution is otherwise random, though, aside from just not giving them directly to you at the start.  If you've got a lot of wormholes on your starting planet(s), that might make more planets closer to you and thus the selection of planets at which the goodies can be found a bit more distant and smaller.

Great questions! :)
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Offline Echo35

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2009, 10:33:25 am »
I think that needs to be in the Wiki if its not already!

Offline x4000

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2009, 10:34:52 am »
I think that needs to be in the Wiki if its not already!

I was thinking the same thing.  Will put it there today. :)
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Offline Ashery

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2009, 10:42:15 am »
If you have time, you have to show me how a wave of 1000+ EtherJets is "very easily countered". They are fast and cloaked, and they can overwhelm a 500 ship fleet quite easily.

Only played standard ships on my first game so I had no direct contact with etherjets and I assumed they were akin to most other ship types...ie they have a hard counter. Was horribly mistaken, however, haha. If you don't have ships immune to tractor beams, you're screwed :x

Offline Haagenti

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2009, 11:39:06 am »
You need to defend with turrets a lot as these cannot be tractored, and you have to keep your mobile fleet concentrated in one or two big groups that can fight them off. Otherwise you are toast.

Alternate ideas: use tachyon fighters as pickets, use massed teleporters to kill them while they drag your stuff off.

At this moment, EtherJets are my most feared adversaries by far.

All of the others:
- are too slow and have no range (and are massacred at a distance by retreating cruisers)
- or pack no punch (planes, fighters, autocannons)
- or have a glaring weakness that is easily exploited (bombers vs cruisers, cruisers vs fighters)
- or come in small packages only (teleporters)

Oh and X...thanks for the detailed answers. BTW: Are EtherJets completely original, or is there another RTS with units that drag your units away to have them killed elsewhere?

EtherJets have a big "emotional" impact as well: Losing 100 units in a big firefight is normal, but I really hate to see 10 units being dragged away, especially when they are painstakingly parasited and carefully repaired IV Cruisers. You look at them...click a few times on them  in a forlorn way, then they go through a wormhole and you never see them again. Like a horror movie.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2009, 11:45:24 am by Haagenti »
Nerfer of EtherJets, Lightning Turrets, Parasites, Raiders, Low Automatic Progress and Deep Raids (to name the most important)

Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!

Offline x4000

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2009, 12:05:52 pm »
Oh and X...thanks for the detailed answers. BTW: Are EtherJets completely original, or is there another RTS with units that drag your units away to have them killed elsewhere?

EtherJets have a big "emotional" impact as well: Losing 100 units in a big firefight is normal, but I really hate to see 10 units being dragged away, especially when they are painstakingly parasited and carefully repaired IV Cruisers. You look at them...click a few times on them  in a forlorn way, then they go through a wormhole and you never see them again. Like a horror movie.

Sure thing! EtherJets are completely original, so far as I know.  I don't know if someone else thought of it also, but I am not aware if they did.  I was really pleased with the idea after I had it, and you're right -- seeing critical units get dragged off to oblivion is pretty traumatizing. Glad you like them! :)
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2009, 12:21:36 pm »
Actually, Sword of the stars has a Colony trap that triggers when your fleet tries to colonize a world, at which point a LOT of tractors are spawned and drag your ships on the planet - Those generally happen very early when you have no decent weapons too...

Ah yeah - Those traps are a pain though - colony ships ain't cheap!
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Offline x4000

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Re: Running on 6 cylinders
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2009, 12:24:21 pm »
Actually, Sword of the stars has a Colony trap that triggers when your fleet tries to colonize a world, at which point a LOT of tractors are spawned and drag your ships on the planet - Those generally happen very early when you have no decent weapons too...

Ah yeah - Those traps are a pain though - colony ships ain't cheap!

Well, I never played SOTS. :)
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