Author Topic: Review of AI War.  (Read 6793 times)

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2010, 06:20:32 pm »
Quote
Yeah, I actually have a copy of SC1.  Its a solid game, but it lacks that little something.  I heard SC2 was bad in comparison.  Granted, that's what I heard.  I have yet to try it.
Don't listen to everything you hear.  SC2 was a great game, most SC1 fans hated it because it was so different, but I was very disappointed with SC1, and I feel like SC2 addressed all the major problems with that game, albeit in a very non-orthodox fashion.  Being a long-time Total Annihilation fan (the developer's original creation, and the title that Gamespy has christened "The Best RTS of All Time"), I feel as though SC2 stays much truer to its roots than does the first game.  Every RTS fan should at least try it.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2010, 06:23:12 pm »
Quote
Yeah, I actually have a copy of SC1.  Its a solid game, but it lacks that little something.  I heard SC2 was bad in comparison.  Granted, that's what I heard.  I have yet to try it.
Don't listen to everything you hear.  SC2 was a great game, most SC1 fans hated it because it was so different, but I was very disappointed with SC1, and I feel like SC2 addressed all the major problems with that game, albeit in a very non-orthodox fashion.  Being a long-time Total Annihilation fan (the developer's original creation, and the title that Gamespy has christened "The Best RTS of All Time"), I feel as though SC2 stays much truer to its roots than does the first game.  Every RTS fan should at least try it.

Is there a demo?  Otherwise, I'll watch Steam for another sale on it.

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Offline orzelek

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2010, 06:45:46 pm »
SC2 is not that bad.. but I bought it for the story only and didn't finish yet.

As for gamers and attention spans etc... all good rtses of the old times went down the drain recently with new reincarnations.

Things like Settlers 7 and C&C 4 are showing that true RTS's die. Apparently they don't want epic games and long battles now - everything needs to be timed and end in an hour or so...

Thats a sad development - even Civ 4 has some very strange idea of shortening the game and different game speeds (where slowest is still quite fast compared to previous incarnations).

Offline HitmanN

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2010, 07:17:27 pm »
Things like Settlers 7 and C&C 4 are showing that true RTS's die. Apparently they don't want epic games and long battles now - everything needs to be timed and end in an hour or so...

Sadly so true.

I absolutely hate RTS's that don't allow playing a campaign that can last at least an entire evening.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 07:19:16 pm by HitmanN »

Offline lanstro

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2010, 08:36:38 pm »
SC2 is a great sequel.  Anyway, poor comparison to AI War - completely different games.  SC2 is a tournament grade competitive game that rewards both quick thinking and quick reflexes, whereas AI War is more like a chilled out board game / thought experiment you engage in with friends.

Edit: oops, I thought the discussion was about starcraft, not supreme commander
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 06:57:22 pm by lanstro »

Offline killerk

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2010, 09:47:22 pm »
I'm am a "hardcore" strategy gamer and i love AI Wars. However, i think the one important point the reviewer was trying to get across is how awesome the game could be if the tutorial was made more accessible, which previous post barely touched on. Having taken game design modules before in university, i would say teaching the player "how use the game interface so that they can start doing interesting stuff" is extremely important, since most people have probably have attention span of less than 10min before they start to get bored.

I don't believe that the interface in AI wars is more complex than WoW or any other MMORPG.  What is the fastest way to bore people? Ask them to read a textbook, which is the feeling i get when i go through the tutorials on AI wars. My suggestion you could look at the most popular flash games on armorgames.com.

We need flashing achievements for everything done, congrats and accolades every 15min to keep us interested in the game. And get rid of the text and put in some fancy graphics indicators, voiceovers, achievements for completing tutorial etc.. be creative, to explain the game. Instant gratification nowadays is the way to go and has been backed by multiple scientific literature doing research into human psychology.

I'm quite sure once users get the hang of the interface and have a taste of the real game, they will know how awesome AI wars is.

Hope this will help increase sales of AI wars Chris, because i think AI Wars is really an awesome game. The goal is to let any strategy gamer, whether hardcore or not, get past the stage where they realize how good is it, rather than limiting yourself (and you $$$) by saying "that guy is playing WoW!! he too noob" mentality.






Offline x4000

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2010, 10:02:50 pm »
My suggestion you could look at the most popular flash games on armorgames.com.

I know a number of indie developers that make some very popular flash games.  I also know that AI War makes about 10x more money than most of them. ;)

We need flashing achievements for everything done, congrats and accolades every 15min to keep us interested in the game.

That's a recent school of game design theory: providing extrinsic rewards for everything.  I think it's very, very misguided and a passing fad.  It's already passing out of vogue in some circles, based on articles I've seen at Gamasutra.  Of course, the Pavlovian school of game design will always have some disciples, but I don't intend to be one of them.

And get rid of the text and put in some fancy graphics indicators, voiceovers, achievements for completing tutorial etc.. be creative, to explain the game.

Right, that stuff costs way more money than I'd make back on it.  People look to solve a problem that doesn't exist: they assume that if only SimCity was a little more accessible, that everyone would want to play it.  But that's not the point: if SimCity were more accessible, it gets into this no-man's land where it's too simple to attract the hardcore city builders, and yet still too complex (slash not interesting enough) to appeal to those people who want instant gratification.

It's not about trying to always reach the largest possible market: it's about very intentionally crafting something to appeal to a specific market in a way that no other product does.

Instant gratification nowadays is the way to go and has been backed by multiple scientific literature doing research into human psychology.

Yes, yes, I've read quite a many of those sorts of articles, and studied a number of undergrad psychology courses as well.  As well as economic theory in four undergrad courses.  But you know what you get when you engineer a game to that degree?  You get the derivative, conservative AAA games that flood the market.  Know why I'm an indie developer?  Because I was dissatisfied with the derivative, conservative AAA games.  I make a living hanging my butt out there on innovations that people may or may not like.  It's a niche of people who also don't like what's going on in the AAA space: if they were happy there, we'd have nothing to offer, because we can't compete on presentation or polish or budget.

I'm quite sure once users get the hang of the interface and have a taste of the real game, they will know how awesome AI wars is.

Hope this will help increase sales of AI wars Chris, because i think AI Wars is really an awesome game. The goal is to let any strategy gamer, whether hardcore or not, get past the stage where they realize how good is it, rather than limiting yourself (and you $$$) by saying "that guy is playing WoW!! he too noob" mentality.

I don't think that non-hardcore strategy gamers are likely to like AI War unless they are actually hardcore strategy players and just don't know it yet.  Ever tried to teach Chess to someone?  Some people just won't get it, and never will love it, no matter how much you teach them or in what way you teach them, or how you reward them.  And that's okay.  Chutes and Ladders and Parcheesi and so forth exist for a reason.  Heck, I quite enjoy some of those simpler games, too.

But when I want a game like Chess, I don't want Parcheesi.  And there are people out there -- lots of people, as history would indicate -- who absolutely obsess over Chess, and love all its depth and complexity.  At any rate, did you read my comment on the original post?  I don't think that over $300,000.00 of income for AI War is "limited income."  AI War is one of the best-selling indie games of the last year, and has far more income than almost any flash game; their sponsorships tend to be around $30k, and occasionally something like $90k, from what I know of that market.  AI War blows that out of the water, complex or no, and is still growing.  Our financial woes had nothing to do with AI War.
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Offline killerk

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2010, 10:12:52 pm »
I agree with you Chris. But the main point i was trying to say was to making the learning process easier given the complexity of the game. I definitely do not want the game to be dumbed down.

Yes, not all player will like chess, but i think we should make it easy for players who could like chess to pick it up without reading a wall of text. Currently, the learning process (i.e the tutorial)  could be so much better.

To quote from the reviewer.

It uses lengthy tutorials instead of short missions to introduce concepts. In those tutorials a paragraph or two of text is thrown at the player that details the elaborate mechanics and keyboard shortcuts the game uses. You’re then told how important it is that you don’t forget the information being told to you, before the game quickly rushes on to the next equally important demonstration.

“I had a quick go and it looked kinda interesting but I got bored long before I could really get into it


and to quote from you
I'm quite sure once users get the hang of the interface and have a taste of the real game, they will know how awesome AI wars is.

My question then is there a better way for users to get the hang of the interface and have a taste of the real game than the current state now?





« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 10:26:57 pm by killerk »

Offline x4000

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2010, 10:47:24 pm »
Well, this is where we come back to resources.  Making tutorials is not exactly fun, nor is it an end unto itself.  The purpose of them is to train the players to play the game, and that includes getting new players interested enough that they continue on with the game.  Now, to add a "series of short missions" that are well designed and fun and which magically explain the game without any text (or without lengthy voiceovers, which of course require both voice actors AND enormous disk space / bandwidth given their combined length, and which will have to be re-recorded every time the game evolves, which is frequently), we're looking at a pretty enormous expense, as well as a month or possibly more of development time, before we get to all the inevitable bug reports.  Meanwhile we're not really adding anything exciting to this game, or making new games.

In order for that to make economic sense, I'd have to have a reasonable assurance that doing an activity like that would lead to a substantial return.  In all my experience, in talking to other indie game designers, and in observing other games, I've not witnessed any such correlation.  Some of the most popular strategy games have utterly wretched tutorials.  Depending on who you ask, ours are either really good or really terrible or somewhere in the middle.  A lot of that boils down to taste: but, more often than not, the people who are in our key target demographic are the ones that like the tutorials here the best.

So I'd call that a win, personally.  Sure, there are infinite things that one could do with the game.  I could add PVP.  I could add some sort of "mini AI War" mode to appeal to those with shorter attention spans or those who want a more bite-sized experience.  We could pour thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours into tutorials.  We could rewrite the game engine to be fully 3D (or at least try -- whether or not that would succeed would be another story).  We could try to adapt it to other platforms, or any number of specific in-game features.

But the fact remains that I don't think any of those things would make a stratospheric difference in the number of players we'd have.  I could be wrong, but I just haven't seen evidence of that anywhere else with a game this mature.  Instead, we build on what we have, and our main thrust of new players comes from those who have never heard of it (which is a lot of people) but who would like it more or less the way it is, as well as those people who've been meaning to try it for a long time but haven't yet.  We won't get super rich doing that, but then again -- three of us can make almost a year's salary with nine man-weeks of work on an expansion, which isn't too shabby.  I think a lot of larger companies would kill for that kind of ROI, not that we can tap that endlessly, or even too frequently.

But all that is beside the point, even.  More to the point, it's about the best ROI on how we spend our time.  And about where risk is, etc.  Pursuing Alden Ridge is far less risky and far likelier to have a greater return compared to doing the massive tutorials for AI War.  AI War seems to grow steadily with or without tutorials with voiceovers, but that's a market it will eventually tap out at some unknown point in the future no matter what we can do: there are simply only so many people who like this sort of game, and we're not likely to be able to get much magazine coverage for the game at this stage, which is what we'd really need to expand.  So, short of spending money we don't have on advertising we aren't good at making, there's not a ton we can do there -- even if we did have better tutorials, the people that would matter to would likely never even know.  The most likely result is that we'd get a slight bump in revenue, while sales continued on at a largely-constant pace. 

On the other hand, pursuing a game like Alden Ridge has a fresh new concept that appeals to a lot of our existing fanbase as well as an even wider market than AI War was ever designed to appeal to.  We have the chance of making new sales to our existing customers, as well as bringing in a ton of new customers -- and with the magazine coverage we will hopefully be able to get, the increased interest will likely bring added exposure to AI War and Tidalis, as well.  Our biggest problem isn't that people don't like our games, it's that few people have heard of AI War and almost no-one has heard of Tidalis (well, now that almost 30,000 people have bought the latter I guess I can't say that anymore, but it's still not exactly a huge percentage of the overall gamer population).

Reviewers are in a tough situation.  They have to play a lot of games, probably a lot of which they won't really like, and so it starts to feel a lot like work except for the ones they're predisposed to really love.  I wouldn't want that job.  When I see a game that doesn't grab me, I just don't play it, which means I only play the games I do like or love.  That gives me, or indeed most gamers, a much better experience overall.  And in fact most of my play-or-not-play decisions are made long before I ever get to a tutorial; that's why some really popular RTS games with terrible tutorials have been really popular.  People were already excited enough to buy them, and when they encountered the tutorials that was a minor roadblock at worst.  Not that I think our tutorials are that terrible.

Anyway, people love to give advice on what we should or shouldn't do to the game, and that's appreciated, but what a lot of folks forget is that whenever we add a feature I'm reaching into my back pocket and paying for that.  If it isn't something I'm personally interested in, then it's got to make an excellent case for ROI, or be sufficiently low-risk / low opportunity-cost to be something I'd do.  Maybe that makes me sound conservative like the big AAA companies, but that's not what I mean: it means I'm a risk-taker where I'm passionate about the subject and think I can do a stellar job, and conservative where I'm not.

It's always a fine line, and there's always 1000 things that can be done.  The trick is to do the ones that give you the quality of life you want, enough income to sustain you, and which lead to something you're proud of at the end of the day.  Not to say that they never would, but at the moment the super-tutorials don't factor into that for me.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2010, 11:11:56 pm »
Maybe I'm a little too idealistic, but if a player has too short an attention span to complete a simple tutorial, they probably don't deserve the amazing benefits and rewards of deep and emergent gameplay.  Very rarely, if ever, do I judge a game based on its tutorial, and for the people that do, well I think that they are basically judging a book by its cover, as if that needs any detailed explanation.

On the topic of "scientific studies" that show that "instant gratification works", well you didn't need a rocket scientist to prove that.  But AI War is not about instant gratification, so why should Chris go through the trouble of making the tutorial contrary to how the actual gameplay occurs?  As a player, I would almost be insulted if the tutorial was full of enjoyable graphics and "minigames" to help me get through it, and then the actual game had nothing to do with that.

To be completely honest about the reviewer that the topic was started about, I frankly don't think he is qualified to be a reviewer.  He himself admitted that
Quote
I definitely haven’t spent as long with the game as would be needed to review it “properly”. I felt worn down and gave up, because it was starting to feel more stressful and undermining than my day job. Four hours is my current total play time according to Steam, and even if this were the most basic of Real-Time-Strategy games, I’d have scarcely scratched the surface.
So logic and common sense would tell you that, if you haven't spent the amount of time necessary to give a game a proper review, don't review it.  Obviously logic and critical thinking aren't this guy's strong points, otherwise he would have enjoyed AI War, but even to the cognitively weak, attempting to review a game based completely on its tutorial seems absurd.

He then has the audacity to attack Arcen Games by criticizing their development strategies, and even their financial difficulties.  If there was a web site to review reviewers, I would give this guy a 1/10, the 1 instead of a 0 in hopes that he was attempting to make people laugh at himself.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2010, 11:24:17 pm »
To be completely honest about the reviewer that the topic was started about, I frankly don't think he is qualified to be a reviewer.  He himself admitted that
Quote
I definitely haven’t spent as long with the game as would be needed to review it “properly”. I felt worn down and gave up, because it was starting to feel more stressful and undermining than my day job. Four hours is my current total play time according to Steam, and even if this were the most basic of Real-Time-Strategy games, I’d have scarcely scratched the surface.
So logic and common sense would tell you that, if you haven't spent the amount of time necessary to give a game a proper review, don't review it.  Obviously logic and critical thinking aren't this guy's strong points, otherwise he would have enjoyed AI War, but even to the cognitively weak, attempting to review a game based completely on its tutorial seems absurd.

That I don't feel is particularly fair to the guy.  He didn't raise any particular ire with me, honestly -- he made it really clear that he hadn't given the game a true run-through, and that this was just sort of a first-impressions post.  He'd basically been told to review the game, but when you find that something is completely not to your tastes but you have to review it anyhow, what are you to do?  I mean, literally what sort of review would you write if you had to review Madden 2011?  I don't think my review would be much better than his.  And I don't buy the argument that reviewers should be held to some higher gold standard anymore than I do the same argument that game developers should.

In short: he was in a pretty tough spot, and I felt like he did the best he could given a bad situation for himself.  My desire here has not been to attack him, but to make sure that having this in the google cache, as well as on the SavyGamer site, doesn't damage any potential sales down the line.  Not as a vendetta against this guy.  There have been a number of reviewers that haven't liked one or more of the games that Arcen has made, and that's always regrettable when that happens (though inevitable).  But I've only felt really angry about a very few reviews that I felt were unfair and unprofessional, and this wasn't one of them.

He then has the audacity to attack Arcen Games by criticizing their development strategies, and even their financial difficulties.  If there was a web site to review reviewers, I would give this guy a 1/10, the 1 instead of a 0 in hopes that he was attempting to make people laugh at himself.

Tone is very hard to tell from the written word, for sure.  I felt like he wasn't criticizing to be insulting or to show his superior knowledge (that is a pretty sure way to really piss me off), but rather like he was actually trying to be a valid and impartial critic based on the knowledge he had.  I wished he had better knowledge of our situation, but it's a tricky thing and the article he cited was incomplete and rather misleading, which had unfortunately caused a lot of people to have the same perception that he did.  His main omission was not checking multiple articles after having read one -- which, really, isn't something I can particularly fault him for.

If every reviewer who doesn't like an Arcen title gets lambasted on these forums, reviewers aren't going to keep reviewing Arcen titles.  I felt like this guy did his job, and just wasn't the right guy for this particular game.  That happens.  And I don't think it's even fair to slur on his intelligence, as there are plenty of intelligent people who simply don't like strategy games or the more lengthy ones.  I never could get into Dwarf Fortress, despite the fact that it should be right up my alley -- I just found it overwhelming, and wasn't inclined to pursue it further (yet, anyway).  Does that make me a dolt?  The DF forumites might think so, but clearly that's not the case.  For all we know, this guy is just wanting to kick back with simplistic games after a day studying neurosurgery and writing reviews on the side.  People look to complex or simple games for all sorts of reasons other than innate intelligence.  Most of the games I play these days are pretty simple, honestly, because I just don't have the mental bandwidth left after working on AI War all day and helping take care of a young baby, to get into someone else's wicked complex game.

Anyway, there have definitely been reviewers who did Arcen wrong.  This guy isn't one of them.
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Offline Dyers_Eve

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2010, 12:39:02 am »
If you don't want to do a boring tutorial then let your players do it for you. In Sword of the Stars (another great epic space game RTS, can't wait for II to come out) it is just one guy by the name of rorshach or something that created the entire wiki and video walkthroughs on the core aspects of the game. It wouldn't be that difficult for an obsessed player to create a video (which you can build into the game instead of tutorials) that shows how to play and be successful and what the game is talking about. Hell you could even make a contest and give out free versions of the new expansion or whatever to the top entries.

I have played a lot of games where the developer wants you to explore the game rather than hold your hand through it via a tutorial style campaign. I find that in the vast majority of the cases (not AI War, so don't get mad) that the developer is lazy or doesn't want to explain that the strategic depth in the game is non-existent because there is always one optimal choice and the rest are terrible. Or the developer wants to leave the game mechanics as a mystery, as if that is what makes a strategy game.

The reviewer is correct in that a lot of people will only try the demo/tutorial for a short period of time and to the best of my knowledge your demo is still on an ancient build with subpar graphics and the tutorial covers the UI and a basic warp gate raid and not much else. A lot of the fun is not shown to new players and that can be a deal sealer. If you don't want to create an AAA tutorial/campaign that is fine but the reviewer is giving you constructive criticism on what he thinks would help you out.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2010, 12:58:19 am »
eh I dont get it - 4h is hardly enough for people to finish the tutorial in most cases >.>

he says that, paraphrasing 'arcen knows about their long/difficult tutorial, and arent doing anything to fix it'... but.. its not broken :\


postface with the mention that I havent had fully enough time to read over the entire thing to properly bash critique it.. it seems to me that its something a non-epicstrategy gamer would say about the type of game.
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2010, 12:58:57 am »
Personally, I fail to see what all the fuss is about over a tutorial.  I haven't even read it and I watched some of Fox's tutorials but overall, I didn't need it.  x4000 is correct in that those that want this game, will not even bother with the tutorial and will just jump in.  I don't see why we need to raise so much fuss over a part of the game that is basically a 1-time-only deal and then we'll be playing.  

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Offline Baleur

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2010, 03:35:32 am »
SC2 is a great sequel.  Anyway, poor comparison to AI War - completely different games.  SC2 is a tournament grade competitive game that rewards both quick thinking and quick reflexes, whereas AI War is more like a chilled out board game / thought experiment you engage in with friends.

They're talking about supreme commander 2, not starcraft 2  :(

And i dont see what the big fuzz is about this review / reviewer.
First off, it isnt a review, he doesnt actually mention any of the gameplay, just how hard it was for him to get into it.
Secondly, i agree with most of what he wrote and actually felt the same way. I STILL havent played the game more than 10 or so hours, still havent finished a savegame yet. Because of the very same things he mention, it simply demands so much patience and methodical up-hill climbing that one just sits there wondering, why am i spending my time with this?

Dont get me wrong, i still adore this game (even though i am barely qualified in terms of AI War experience enough to say so).
And i've loved strategy games for all my life. I support this game. I bought AI War plus all expansions, so allow me to elaborate before flaming me.
But the end result, for me personally, is that when i sit there and 5 hours has passed and there's not much to show for it in the game, or in terms of false progress (carrots in front of the players nose, phat loot, etc), not to mention in my real life, i just shut the game off.. I guess its not so much about patience as it is about the reward you're personally getting from the game.

I'm not talking about a big shiny WIN!! <-- CLICK THIS FOR COOL!! button, I'm talking about the dangling carrots in front of the players nose.
I could mention other games, but there'd be no point, it would just be met with "that game is nothing like this" responses, and i agree.
The end result, again, is just that i'm not having enough fun and mental stimulation for the 10+ hours i put into this game, compared to other less intelligent games.

I feel as if i'm just wasting my real-life time. Granted that could be said about any game, but idk.
I just get more entertainment per unit of wasted irl time, from other games.
It's sad, i guess. But its just the truth for me.

More sad though is that often this type of feedback is greeted with elitist replies commenting on various forms of lack of intelligence of the writer, not being as evolved and magnificent as the fanbase to enjoy this gem of a game. But thats not what its about. Its not about me being too dumb to appreciate a complex challenging game. It's about feeling like I'm not wasting my time. It's still plagued with the same fact that all other games are plagued with, that "it's still just a game, not a real struggle for humanity".
And when you're wasting irl time on a game, that, no matter how complex it is, always remains just a game, you just want more entertainment per unit time.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2010, 03:41:12 am by Baleur »