Author Topic: Review of AI War.  (Read 6786 times)

Offline Mithror

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2010, 04:04:08 am »
The tutorial was great in my opinion. It was just what I needed to get started. I thaught me about Gate Raiding and Deep Striking, two important tactics if you ask me. If people can't focus on finishing the tutorial, then the game is simply not for them. That's why it's great it's included in the demo. It gives people the tools to decide whether or not they will enjoy the game.

I also don't quite understand the fuzz around this review? It looks to me that the reviewer can see the potential in the game, but can also see that it is not for him. It's, as the reviewer himself mentions, an evolution in the way gamers experience their games. In the past we used to love all the complicated and immersive things, but we were also with a lot less gamers. The gaming industry has evolved to tap into the market of people who want simpler things. It just so happens that, as with anything in life, there are a lot more people who want things simple, then there are people who want things complicated and actually use their brains in an active manner. This of course, leads to more, but simpler games overall. It is something that has bothered me for a long time, and often still does, because I would love to share this sort of intellectual satisfaction with the others around me, but unfortunately it does not look like this will happen anytime soon. Humans are intrinsically lazy :)

This game will, if you ask me, never reach the masses but I also think that that is and should not be Arcen Games' intention. I think they are doing the right thing by tapping into the loyal fans (whom I imagine comprise a relatively large percentage of their available market) and providing them with plenty of opportunities (expansions) to support them, which we all gladly do.

Offline SRombauts

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2010, 03:07:35 am »
The tutorial is as the game is. This is good.

I made an additional comment to the review to say how and why I like the game.

Offline deano2099

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2010, 02:04:15 pm »
I wanted to jump in here because it's an interesting topic to me, but with the huge disclaimer that I've barely had chance to play AI War yet so it's possible some of this might be speaking out of my backside as it might be hard to apply to AI War.

But regardless, there's an interesting dichotomy here between what we're actually calling a 'tutorial'. It's been said that some very successful RTS games had bad tutorials. But with most modern RTSs, the 'tutorial' in the menu isn't the real tutorial. It's the mission-based campaign. Starcraft 2 basically takes this to extremes, with each mission showcasing the abilities of one particular unit (and fails as you never get a chance to use all these units together to take down the enemy as they introduce the last unit and then it's the end, pretty much).

The question is can you teach what's taught in the tutorial, but in a more interesting way through a series of story-driven missions that make the learning more interesting (and therefore, work better). It seems the answer is yes, but it'd take a long time for no real benefit. Well to throw something out there, why not make that part of a mission-based campaign. Each mission could highlight different game mechanics, and by limiting the units available to you, and having highly specialised enemies, you could force players to develop new strategies. Played on easy/medium, they'd be a tutorial. On hard+, they'd challenge even hardened players.

Of course, that'd take even longer. But, I'd buy that as an expansion. Perhaps it could even be sold as a standalone AI War Lite, with an upgrade available to the full version if people want more. That's where I'd see your ROI. I might be entirely wrong of course, and there's still the fact that that's not really the sort of game Arcen wants to be making. I'm also quite aware that you don't *need* to pull in a lot more customers, the game has sold very well. But I reckon you could, if you wanted. And that could be one way to do it.

Offline Signata

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2010, 09:36:45 pm »
A conceptual problem with that idea is that it's not a very nice way to start off a game as a new user, to ask where the tutorial is or how to learn the game, and be informed by everyone that they should buy an expansion to learn how to play it. :)

Offline Mithror

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2010, 03:28:32 am »
I believe the current intermediate tutorial sort of already does this, if you ask me. It lets you play out a small game and gives you certain objectives (missions) to achieve. It lacks the story aspect of your suggestion, but I think that this game is not so much a story being told as it is much more a story being designed by the player whilst playing. I think an actual story for this game would soon turn out a bit too cheesy, unless of course I'm underestimating Arcen Games' writing potential. It just something I observed with other games.

Offline Wingflier

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2010, 07:16:09 am »
To be honest, it's been awhile since I've played the tutorials, and they might be a little different than they were in the first official version of the game.  So I'm going to give reviewers the benefit of the doubt and try them again, and try to pretend I've never played the game before.  I want to see if it's really as "stressful" and "taxing" as many people keep saying it is.  (I have double motivation to do this because my friend and my dad quit during the tutorials as well).
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Offline Mithror

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2010, 07:56:02 am »
It's probably due to all the text you have to read. It takes some dedication to read it, especially on a medium like the pc (tl;dr syndrome). So an improvement could be to have a good voiceover to narrate what is written, but this costs money and making it good is harder than it sounds :)

Offline Signata

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2010, 07:58:22 am »
I just went through the tutorial not a few weeks ago, there is hardly any text at all that you have to read. Maybe a half-dozen lines per major step you have to take?

I don't know, I'm the type that goes through a hundred books a year, so maybe I'm the wrong person to ask. Heh.

Offline Mithror

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2010, 08:18:49 am »
Yeah, I'm the same, I didn't really notice myself, but it could be an explanation, dunno :)

Offline deano2099

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2010, 08:22:37 am »
A conceptual problem with that idea is that it's not a very nice way to start off a game as a new user, to ask where the tutorial is or how to learn the game, and be informed by everyone that they should buy an expansion to learn how to play it. :)

A very good point, hence the suggestion that maybe it also work as a standalone which you could then upgrade to the full thing. But yeah it's still sort of uncomfortable, but Cliffski is doing something similar with Gratuitous Space Battles - ie. flogging the campaign as DLC.

There's other options too of course - even if you gave away the 'tutorial' campaign as a freebie, the development done in that to allow for small mission based games might allow for some challenge mission DLC to be rolled out quite quickly. Who knows.

Maybe something as simple as re-naming the 'intermediate tutorial' to 'beginner game' might help - it's just a matter of making players think the time they're investing is playing, rather than learning so they can play at a later point. Generally play=fun, learn=not fun. The less explicit you make the learning experience, the more you disguise it as playing, the more receptive the player.

Offline Moth Bones

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2010, 08:51:21 am »
As a new buyer with barely any experience of RTS games, my observations might be pertinent.

I'm overwhelmed by AI War. I'm currently on the Intermediate Tutorial, spending a hell of a lot of time paused while I try and work out what to do next. I find it incredibly hard to think military and economy simultaneously; I suspect I have ludicrous overstocks of metal and crystal and knowledge. I click on random threads on the forums and am baffled within minutes.

None of this puts me off, for a few reasons.

One, the game looks fantastic. Most of the praise I've seen directed at it is concerned with the quality of the AI and the variety and depth of the game. I can't yet speak for those but I can say that the game looks lovely; the graphics, menus and typefaces are warm and inviting, promising fun galore.

Two, the basic tutorials are easily comprehended and perfectly decent to play, minimising the intimidating complexity a fair amount. Linked to this - though I've yet to jump into a fully-fledged campaign, I know that I can tailor the AI to a point where I'll be comfortable with it.

Three, the game has a sense of massive depth that can be slowly explored. If I compare it with Arsenal Of Democracy, another complex strategy game that I bought in a sale, it's much easier to find a way in. AoD completely intimidated me right from the start, it gives off a vibe of "Here it is, take it or leave it" and so far I've been unable to take it. AI War is more "Hey, come and check this out. It won't be easy, but I promise you it will be worth it."

This really feels like the game to get me into more challenging fare than Civ4, and I'd like to thank Arcen for the Dec 1st offer that encouraged me to finally take the plunge. Also the good folks at RPS - especially Vinraith, who I've already spotted here - for talking the game up and persuading me to buy something outside my comfort zone. I reckon that within a few months I'll be absolutely loving this.

Offline x4000

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2010, 08:57:06 am »
Very cool -- thanks for the thoughts, Moth Bones. That's a really interesting perspective, and I'm quite gals to hear it. And welcome to the forums! :)
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Offline Salamander

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2010, 10:14:53 am »
It can be off-putting to many I'm sure. Those of us that used to play tabletop games like Star Fleet Battles, World in Flames, Empires in Arms, and of course the vast plethora of excellent PC games like Master of Magic, Master of Orion I&II, Dominions 2&3, Space Empires, etc. eat this kind of game up, but many people prefer a far 'clickier' style of game. I'm not a huge fan of 'standard' RTSes as I prefer turn-based for this style of game and too often RTSes fall into the 'zerg' or 'build-the-best-couple-of-units-group-of-death' mentalities, but AI War really does feel like it's actually a real-time strategy game. I love action games as well, as I am avid Team Fortress 2 player, but nothing beats a good thoughtful empire builder for me. Too many people, at least here in the USA, are focused on shorter-attention span games and this relegates great, but more complex games like AI War, Victoria II, and Europa Universalis III to a niche market. The reviewer's thoughts are quite common in today's market.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2010, 01:05:03 pm by Salamander »

Offline Winter Born

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #43 on: December 03, 2010, 03:13:46 pm »
comment posted to the review

Offline ShadowOTE

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Re: Review of AI War.
« Reply #44 on: December 03, 2010, 03:20:49 pm »
Surprisingly starfleet battles is still around. I drop by one of the local games stores and they consistently have stuff for it. My dad introduced it to when I was a kid and it is pretty awesome. What was neat was that he wrote a program that did all the calculations and tracked ship stats, which saved huge amounts of time and effort. Never did get around to using our modified ruleset for a campaign in it though, which is a shame because it would have been epic :(