Requesting Feedback: Zenith Hydra, Zenith Devastator, Neinzul Railpod

[chemical_art]

That's my only real complaint. It kills my economy, even by nenzul standards in upkeep.

What cost are you seeing for the mkI, and what would be reasonable in your view?
[/quote]

Most nenzul on on normals run around ~200 m + c on low cap games, but the disposable  nanoswarms ones are much cheaper (under one hundred, maybe even around 60) I think. Railpods right now are 152 (I think) comparatively. Will get you harder numbers within an hour.

Given their very disposable nature, their cost should be closer to the viral suicider then normal ones, but on the other hand infinite range and direct damage means it has to cost more.

So I'm thinking somewhere between 80 - 120 M+C before I look at hard numbers. Or around 33% ish more expensive then nenzul nanoswarms.

[chemical_art]

Ok for normal games:

Standard younglings have 100 M + C
Nanoswarms have 40
Railpods have 76 , double cap


So I'm thinking reducing railpods to around ~50 - 55 on normal games

[keith.lamothe]

Ok for normal games:

Standard younglings have 100 M + C
Nanoswarms have 40
Railpods have 76 , double cap


So I'm thinking reducing railpods to around ~50 - 55 on normal games

Ok, for 6.043:

* Neinzul Railpod cap m+c from 5k/10k => 5k/5k.

Meaning exactly the same cap m+c as the non-nanoswarm CoN younglings, but since railpods are double-cap the individual costs are 1/2 those other younglings.  So 50 m+c in your case.

[chemical_art]

Ok, for 6.043:

* Neinzul Railpod cap m+c from 5k/10k => 5k/5k.

Meaning exactly the same cap m+c as the non-nanoswarm CoN younglings, but since railpods are double-cap the individual costs are 1/2 those other younglings.  So 50 m+c in your case.
[/quote]

Looks good. Goes with the other younglings trend of having equal M + C, which is very key feature of them in the long run.

[KDR_11k]

"Feed my economy right into my minigun!"

[keith.lamothe]

"Feed my economy right into my minigun!"

You see "Harvester IIIs", I see "Ammunition".

[Toranth]

Let us compare the disposable units:

Ship	Cap	Damage	Notes
Autobomb	96	16,200 x 10
Nanoswarm	96	3,240 x (Mk + 1) * 2	Lots of status effects
Youngling Firefly	96	7,480 per shot / 2,480 DPS	Explodes for AOE:  Avg 18,750 x 20
Spire MiniRam	20	780,000	Large Targets only
Railpod	192	9,360 x 2	Kill self after 2 shots, infinite range

A single Railpod is as good as:
1 Autobomb hitting 1 target (1/10 max).
1 Nanoswarm hitting 6 targets (1.5x max).
1 Firefly AOE hitting 1 target after shooting 10 times (1/2 max), OR
1 Firefly AOE hitting 10 targets (1/2 max) after firing zero times.


Railpods have twice the cap of these other units, so you can double the equivalent:
1 Autobomb hitting 2 targets (1/5 max),
1 Nanoswarm hitting 12 targets (3x max),
1 Firefly AOE hitting 1 target after shooting 20 times (max), OR
1 Firefly AOE hitting 20 targets (max) after shooting zero times.


In other words: 
Right now the Railpod's only clear advantage is the infinite range.
In terms of damage, it does 1/5 the damage of the Autobomb, about three times the average case for the Nanoswarm but without special effects, and 1/10 to 1/5 the Firefly's AOE.

Damage wise, it is lacking compared to the other disposable units. 
The number of units that can be produced per second is dependent on the performance profile.  Testing shows Insane can produce about 5/sec, while Extremely Low is only about 1.66/sec.  Average gives a middle case of 3/sec, so we'll proceed with that.
In terms of purely practical performance, an MSD can produce 3 Railpod/sec, and you can have 9 MSDs cap.
Second 1 = 3 x 9 x 9360 damage = 252,720
Second 2 = 3 x 9 x 9360 damage = 252,720
Second 3+ = Second n-2 units fire again and die, second n units produced = 2 x 3 x 9 x 9360 = 505,440
...
505,440 DPS to anything vulnerable to Sniper Shots. 

What is a practical 505,440 cap DPS is very high for a fleetship.  It also has 6x multipliers against Close Combat, Light, Medium, and Polycrystal.  That's about 30% of units, including most Guardians and several Guardposts.  Against those, you get over 3 million DPS sustained.
It's DPS/resource cost (improved in 6.041) is higher than most fleetships, even compared to the other disposables. 


Autobomb practical cap-DPS = 3 * 9 * 16,200 * 10 = 4,374,000 (requires 10 targets); 2,187,000 DPS in the average (5 target) case.

Nanoswarm practical cap-DPS = 3 * 9 * 3,240 * 4 = 87,480 (4 targets) + lots of status effects.

Firefly AOE practical cap-DPS = 3 * 9 * 37,400 * 20 = 20,196,000 (20 targets and fired 20 shots) (unattainable)
More common Expected case (2 shots and 10 shots) = 1,009,800 DPS.  (2 shots = 3 seconds = less than cap spawn time - attainable)
Minimal case, avg (10) targets, zero shots = 504,900 DPS. (Instant suicide, below minimum expected)


Note for completion: 
Theoretical cap DPS is 192 * 9360 = 1,797,120 DPS.  Normal calculations would suggest half that (2 second reload) = 898,560, but testing showed that produced Railpods will fire the same second they are produced (even before the new unit has fully appeared). 
In the case where you could produce 192 units per second, you see'd:
Second 1, all 192 be produced and fire = 1,797,120 damage. 
Second 2, nothing.
Second 3, all 192 fire, die, be reproduced, and fire = 2 x 1,797,120 = 3,594,240 damage.
Second 4+ repeat.
This equals 1,797,120 DPS.

However, a single HW game cannot produce more than 87 Railpods per second (20 space docks, 9 MSDs, 3/sec each), while it would require 96 Railpods/sec replacement to attain full cap-DPS.
87/sec replacement = sustained 174 x 9360 = 1,628,640 DPS.  This is 5x-6x most starships.  This is also 8,700 m+c/sec.  Comparison:  An Armored Golem is 1,040 m+c/sec for 2,500,000 DPS.
Under high performance profiles, it may be possible to produce maximum DPS.
At max DPS, you can sustain a little over 100 seconds of production from max resources, giving close to 200,000,000 damage over that time period.


All in all, under ideal defensive circumstances, it can be VERY powerful, and VERY expensive.  However, on offense where production is limited to the MSDs, the max DPS is greatly reduced, to 30% or so.
This means the Railpod is a defensive spam unit for converting resources into damage on certain high-production worlds.  On offense, they require MSDs and provide no more than mediocre sniper support.  Not bad, but neither do they excel there.
But on defense... Impressive.

[keith.lamothe]

@Toranth: Two quick fact-checks on the railpod analysis:
1) Is it showing no bonuses for you?  I see 6x vs 4 types (including Light and Polycrystal)
2) Are you sure you're only getting one railpod per constructor per second?  What performance profile?  (that influences how fast it can get new object numbers to issue to new ships)

[Toranth]

@Toranth: Two quick fact-checks on the railpod analysis:
1) Is it showing no bonuses for you?  I see 6x vs 4 types (including Light and Polycrystal)
2) Are you sure you're only getting one railpod per constructor per second?  What performance profile?  (that influences how fast it can get new object numbers to issue to new ships)

(Actually opens the game to double check numbers)  Ooh, yes, 6x multipliers.  I forgot to copy those into my notes somehow.  That'll require some updates to my math.

I run on Extremely Low by default, due to the many-HW games I frequently play and my abuse of +10 speed.  That actually seems to come out to something like 1.66/sec or so.  When I upped it to 'Insane', I was seeing about 5/sec.  That's a BIG difference.  I'll redo my math, assuming Average profile and 3/sec observed.
Thanks for correcting me.

[keith.lamothe]

I can probably get constructors to be able to "store" multiple upcoming fg-object numbers so we can avoid this big difference in production rate.  It's not costing you any more resources on ex-low, it's just stalling on literally not having a primary key to assign to the next unit.

Normally not a big deal, but making a Space Dock Cannon is srs-bsns.

[chemical_art]

That would explain how with nenzul my production costs would very tremendously.

[Toranth]

Math has been updated.  I hope it is correct this time.

Railpods = SCARY.  But only in Human hands.

I can probably get constructors to be able to "store" multiple upcoming fg-object numbers so we can avoid this big difference in production rate.  It's not costing you any more resources on ex-low, it's just stalling on literally not having a primary key to assign to the next unit.

Normally not a big deal, but making a Space Dock Cannon is srs-bsns.

Actually, if you could make it produce units faster, the only limiting factor on suicide-unit performance would be travel/firing time.

*imagines Railpods that 1-shot kill themselves*
If the Railpods were 1-shot suicide, the only limiting factor on DPS would be resources and the rate they could be pumped into the Space Docks.  Given caps of Engineer Mk I, II, and III, you could probably produce multiple caps/second.  Perhaps even exhaust your entire 999,999 resources in 1 second, doing 200,000,000 DPS from the Space Dock...  (for 1 second)

[keith.lamothe]

Perhaps even exhaust your entire 999,999 resources in 1 second, doing 200,000,000 DPS from the Space Dock...  (for 1 second)

But for that brief moment, the space dock would outshine the sunout-DPS a GCS.

[keith.lamothe]

One thing to note is that the railpod's infinite range is actually a really huge advantage for disposable-zerging, because often the real limitation on how much damage autobombs/fireflies/etc can put out is not how quickly they can be produced, but how many you have "in the air" at once.  In other words, you run into the cap before the "leading edge" dies.  This is particularly true of fireflies, though those are actually capable of some really goofy levels of damage when well "charged" and detonated in a target-rich environment.

So because the railpods are pretty much literally a conversion of m+c to damage, where autobombs/etc have a distinctly non-zero time-to-target, their costing more to get that "time-efficient" conversion is part of the idea.

I'm sure we'll be revisiting railpod balance soon, though

[Toranth]

One thing to note is that the railpod's infinite range is actually a really huge advantage for disposable-zerging, because often the real limitation on how much damage autobombs/fireflies/etc can put out is not how quickly they can be produced, but how many you have "in the air" at once.  In other words, you run into the cap before the "leading edge" dies.  This is particularly true of fireflies, though those are actually capable of some really goofy levels of damage when well "charged" and detonated in a target-rich environment.

So because the railpods are pretty much literally a conversion of m+c to damage, where autobombs/etc have a distinctly non-zero time-to-target, their costing more to get that "time-efficient" conversion is part of the idea.

I'm sure we'll be revisiting railpod balance soon, though

Yes, the Railpod's range makes it faster to cycle than the melee-disposables, and MUCH faster than the Firefly, which takes a full minute to charge to max.

On the other hand, that 999,999 resources?  That'll build you 2 Fortresses.  And over the same 100 seconds that a Railpod Spacedock Cannon will do about 200,000,000 damage, those Fortresses will do 160,000,000 damage.  And then they can do it over the next 100 seconds, and the next, etc.  It's an impressive burst capability, but they aren't sustainable.  So I'm not too concerned over their balance, because they seem very hard to abuse.  So far.