Poll

Do you think the sliders (engineers, rebuilders, matter converters, energy buffer) should be replaced with textboxes?

Yes - replace sliders with textboxes
7 (63.6%)
No - keep these sliders
1 (9.1%)
I don't use the sliders (e.g., build manually)
2 (18.2%)
Other
1 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 0

Author Topic: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?  (Read 2009 times)

Offline contingencyplan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« on: October 23, 2012, 02:05:00 am »
I've grown increasingly annoyed by the sliders in the Controls menu --- the "autobuild engineers, rebuilders, and matter converters" and "Energy Buffer to Maintain" controls. Right now, in the 8HW game I just started, I'm trying to set up the number of engineers per homeworld based on what I want each to build. For example, because I have 3 construction yards on one world, I'd like 9 each of MkI and MkII engineers [1] to always be present. Unfortunately, due to the multi-HW explosion in the cap for these ships, one pixel (judged by one "increment" of movement of the slider) on 1280 x 1024 does not correspond to one engineer. Instead, I can only choose to build 8 or 10 engineers, no matter how carefully I try to move my mouse. In general, I can typically get the slider to the desired value after several tedious attempts of moving my mouse back and forth, though most of the time releasing the mouse button moves the slider just enough to require me to start all over again. And to be clear, I've experienced this problem, though less severely, on 1HW games as well.


I realize that I can just build the engineers directly, rather than setting up the autobuild, but I'd like to "set it and forget it," especially if that particular world comes under attack (extremely important on frontier worlds, where I want to ensure enough engineers to quickly rebuild / repair my defenses).


In my view, replacing these sliders by a textbox would be preferable, as it allows the Player to exert explicit control over the autobuilding system without having to futz with a bad slider. The main point that I see to the slider is to prevent someone from inputting a value outside the available engineers / energy / etc., but I think this could be easily solved with a tooltip stating the maximum valid value (e.g., the number of remaining engineers / energy / etc.), potentially with a warning that values above (or below) that range would result in unpredictable behavior. And I presume that some input validation is already present for the other textboxes to ensure that, e.g., negative values are not input, so carrying over the same logic to these new textboxes should not be difficult (though I could certainly be wrong).


I checked Mantis and didn't see any reports about this, so I figured I'd post a thread to see if anybody thought the same way, or if anybody had other ideas about how to handle this situation.






[1] I realize that this is likely not optimal (due to diminishing returns on engineers per construction yard), but I haven't seen any specific description of what the optimal engineers-to-shipyard ratio is, so I just default to 3 per mark per yard.

Offline Diazo

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,717
  • I love/hate Diff 10
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2012, 10:04:52 am »
[1] I realize that this is likely not optimal (due to diminishing returns on engineers per construction yard), but I haven't seen any specific description of what the optimal engineers-to-shipyard ratio is, so I just default to 3 per mark per yard.

Assisting construction queues.

The page needs a once-over to make sure all the details still line up for 6.0, but I checked and the basic logic is still correct.

The biggest error I think is that the game engine only allows one ship to be build per frame, and there are 4 frames per second on the default settings which is why the page says there is a 4 per second limit.

As for the thread topic, I kind of have to agree. The range of number available due to how widely in-game numbers can vary between a single HW at game start (really low) to a end-game multi-HW (really high).

D.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2012, 10:22:23 am »
I don't care, I just want Local System Settings to override Global Settings, so I can set a global of say 2 Engineers/System, but change a specific system to only 1 Engineer.  Currently they add together, so you can never have fewer than your Global Settings.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2012, 10:39:30 am »
The biggest error I think is that the game engine only allows one ship to be build per frame, and there are 4 frames per second on the default settings which is why the page says there is a 4 per second limit.
There are (iirc) 20 frames per second on the High performance profile, and 5 frames per "turn", and thus 4 "turns" per second.  Each queue-builder can only be issued a new FGObjectNumber to pass onto what it's building once per turn.  If it finishes construction and doesn't have a number to pass on, it waits until it does.

Anyway, in the past I've avoided textboxes because they had lots of bugs, particularly with multiple on the screen at once.  If that's no longer true I can change the control type here.

@Hearteater: So what would the planet-setting for (say) autobuilding engiIs being set to zero mean?  Use the global setting?  Or "never autobuild engiIs"?
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline LaughingThesaurus

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,723
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2012, 10:42:11 am »
Quick idea: 0 = use global, with an unticked checkbox for "never build engineers"

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2012, 10:46:30 am »
If text boxes: A # means use that number.  0 means 0.  Blank means use global.
If slider: Far left should be "Use Global", then "0", then numbers 1 and up.

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2012, 11:07:15 am »
Better option:

-1 : Use global ("-1 = default")
0 : Build None

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2012, 11:10:45 am »
Anyway, in the past I've avoided textboxes because they had lots of bugs, particularly with multiple on the screen at once.  If that's no longer true I can change the control type here.

Nope, very much still true, at least in my experience; text-boxes are still quite buggy for me.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2012, 11:12:35 am »
Anyway, in the past I've avoided textboxes because they had lots of bugs, particularly with multiple on the screen at once.  If that's no longer true I can change the control type here.

Nope, very much still true, at least in my experience; text-boxes are still quite buggy for me.
In WINE, though, right?
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline contingencyplan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2012, 11:34:06 am »
Anyway, in the past I've avoided textboxes because they had lots of bugs, particularly with multiple on the screen at once.  If that's no longer true I can change the control type here.

Nope, very much still true, at least in my experience; text-boxes are still quite buggy for me.
In WINE, though, right?


I use Wine (1.5.13, built from Git) as well. There are a few "bugs" (though not "defects" on y'all's end, I would expect) if I switch virtual desktops and come back to the game. Mainly, the save game name box won't give me a cursor so I can change earlier parts of the name (I have to backspace it out); I know that the planet name box in the Notes has similar behavior, and I haven't tried any of the Controls boxes like this. If I just sit down and play the game, then the textboxes seem to work as expected. I haven't been able to figure out what exactly is causing it or where I can reproduce it reliably though.  :-\

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2012, 11:35:19 am »
Anyway, in the past I've avoided textboxes because they had lots of bugs, particularly with multiple on the screen at once.  If that's no longer true I can change the control type here.

Nope, very much still true, at least in my experience; text-boxes are still quite buggy for me.
In WINE, though, right?


I use Wine (1.5.13, built from Git) as well. There are a few "bugs" (though not "defects" on y'all's end, I would expect) if I switch virtual desktops and come back to the game. Mainly, the save game name box won't give me a cursor so I can change earlier parts of the name (I have to backspace it out); I know that the planet name box in the Notes has similar behavior, and I haven't tried any of the Controls boxes like this. If I just sit down and play the game, then the textboxes seem to work as expected. I haven't been able to figure out what exactly is causing it or where I can reproduce it reliably though.  :-\

Good to know I am not alone dealing with these sorts of issues.

Is anyone else that is running on a supported platform encountering text-box weirdness?

Offline contingencyplan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2012, 11:38:13 am »
I use Wine (1.5.13, built from Git) as well. There are a few "bugs" (though not "defects" on y'all's end, I would expect) if I switch virtual desktops and come back to the game. Mainly, the save game name box won't give me a cursor so I can change earlier parts of the name (I have to backspace it out); I know that the planet name box in the Notes has similar behavior, and I haven't tried any of the Controls boxes like this. If I just sit down and play the game, then the textboxes seem to work as expected. I haven't been able to figure out what exactly is causing it or where I can reproduce it reliably though.  :-\

Good to know I am not alone dealing with these sorts of issues.

Is anyone else that is running on a supported platform encountering text-box weirdness?
Is it just when you switch virtual desktops or the screensaver pops up? Or does it happen other times as well? And what version of Wine are you running, and on what platform? (Sabayon Linux here.)

Offline Volatar

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,055
  • Patient as a rock
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2012, 11:45:07 am »
Is anyone else that is running on a supported platform encountering text-box weirdness?

I run on W7 and do a ton of window switching (running the game in fullscreen with dual monitors) and I have never had any problems with the textboxes (well, at least since they fixed the focus loss problem). I do with I could hit enter on some of them though, like the ship design ones.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2012, 11:45:46 am »
I use Wine (1.5.13, built from Git) as well. There are a few "bugs" (though not "defects" on y'all's end, I would expect) if I switch virtual desktops and come back to the game. Mainly, the save game name box won't give me a cursor so I can change earlier parts of the name (I have to backspace it out); I know that the planet name box in the Notes has similar behavior, and I haven't tried any of the Controls boxes like this. If I just sit down and play the game, then the textboxes seem to work as expected. I haven't been able to figure out what exactly is causing it or where I can reproduce it reliably though.  :-\

Good to know I am not alone dealing with these sorts of issues.

Is anyone else that is running on a supported platform encountering text-box weirdness?
Is it just when you switch virtual desktops or the screensaver pops up? Or does it happen other times as well? And what version of Wine are you running, and on what platform? (Sabayon Linux here.)

Ubuntu Linux 12.04. Wine 1.5.something (I'll have to get back to you on the exact version)

Yea, switching windows or desktop increases the risk of this happening. But it doesn't assure it. Nor does not switching windows or desktops prevent it. Sometimes these issues will trigger even if I never switch. Sometimes, it happens the first time I use a textbox straight from startup of AI War (again, no window switching).

Offline contingencyplan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 147
Re: Replace Sliders (in Controls) with Textboxes?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2012, 11:51:22 am »
Is anyone else that is running on a supported platform encountering text-box weirdness?

I run on W7 and do a ton of window switching (running the game in fullscreen with dual monitors) and I have never had any problems with the textboxes (well, at least since they fixed the focus loss problem). I do with I could hit enter on some of them though, like the ship design ones.


I would be in favor of "Enter --> Confirm" behavior, especially on the save game dialog.


I use Wine (1.5.13, built from Git) as well. There are a few "bugs" (though not "defects" on y'all's end, I would expect) if I switch virtual desktops and come back to the game. Mainly, the save game name box won't give me a cursor so I can change earlier parts of the name (I have to backspace it out); I know that the planet name box in the Notes has similar behavior, and I haven't tried any of the Controls boxes like this. If I just sit down and play the game, then the textboxes seem to work as expected. I haven't been able to figure out what exactly is causing it or where I can reproduce it reliably though.  :-\

Good to know I am not alone dealing with these sorts of issues.

Is anyone else that is running on a supported platform encountering text-box weirdness?
Is it just when you switch virtual desktops or the screensaver pops up? Or does it happen other times as well? And what version of Wine are you running, and on what platform? (Sabayon Linux here.)

Ubuntu Linux 12.04. Wine 1.5.something (I'll have to get back to you on the exact version)

Yea, switching windows or desktop increases the risk of this happening. But it doesn't assure it. Nor does not switching windows or desktops prevent it. Sometimes these issues will trigger even if I never switch. Sometimes, it happens the first time I use a textbox straight from startup of AI War (again, no window switching).


Interesting. It's quite possible that it happens to me too and I just don't notice it, though I do get up fairly often for long enough to trigger the screensaver, so that could be masking it.


Does this affect the Controls textboxes as well?