Author Topic: Refleeting is still way too long  (Read 27198 times)

Offline Diazo

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,717
  • I love/hate Diff 10
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2013, 03:00:22 pm »
Okay, just how often are you people re-fleeting?

In this case, re-fleeing is defined as losing all (or effectively all) of your mobile fleet.

A lot of the responses to this thread make it feel like you have to re-fleet relatively often which is very much not what I experience.

Most games I never have to re-fleet (as per the definition in this post). I take losses yes, but it is rare that my intact mobile fleet is less then 50% of my mobile fleet cap.

For me I only have to re-fleet in 2 (well 3) situations:

1) I screwed up, badly. We're talking something like a Nuclear Eye I triggered while my fleet was in system badly here. If the tactical situation goes south I run away with what I can save of my fleet and come back with another tactic. (Warheads/cloaking/etc.)

Does this mean I run away from targets I could have destroyed if I'd stayed? Yes, but I'd rather have a fleet left and my target survive then have no fleet left and my target dead.


2) Spectacularly bad timing on a CPA. We're talking I just built a command station in a system with an Adv Fac and no defenses up yet bad here. Even then the CPA has to be a nasty one, either due to ship composition or I have not hit enough AI Reducers yet.


3) This one only sort of counts, but in situations where I've lost the game and have not surrendered yet the losing of my entire fleet is usually the final push by the AI that causes me to surrender.


Again, I'm approaching this from the standpoint of the fact that if you are having to re-fleet, the attack that you launched that caused you to have to re-fleet was a bad attack you should not have done and you are now being punished by the AI for a bad tactical decision.

Having said that I am aware that my game setup pretty much defines the "small" end of the spectrum with only a single-HW and no super-weapons enabled.

Does a "bigger" game, such as starting with multiple-HW or enabling super-weapons really narrow your tactical options down so much that "throw my entire fleet at it" is your only answer? If yes, then I would argue game mechanics need a tweak. "Throw your entire fleet at it" should never be your only/best option.
(This also is a larger discussion then just the resource cap increase.)

D.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 03:07:36 pm by Diazo »

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2013, 03:41:18 pm »
I've been arguing from a position of #1.  I knew that my refleet was going to be MASSIVE in duration based on two factors:

1) How long it had taken to finish building the last few units I had just unlocked only a half hour prior.
2) I was already near-zero resources due to golem repairs, so I hadn't had time to build up a resource buffer.

Offline Qatu

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2013, 05:44:36 pm »
 I like to play with the option for special forces that have extra stuff. Extra stuff include starship swallowers. I can't always save the swallowed. Swallowers eat most expensive ships first. It's easy to lose 2-5 million resources worth of starships in a few seconds if I can't save them.

 So i turn off swallowers. I play with the thing that send mini waves when punching guard posts. Those mini waves ignore the turned off swallowers option. When i shoot guard posts and swallowers happen i lose starships.

 Sometimes I play with trader. Trader adds a anti starship canon on random planet every couple hours. Pathing fleet through cleared system that suddenly has an anti starship cannon i lose a couple starships before i realize.

 I usually play without pausing or reloading. I also usually play at +10 speed to avoid getting bored. I make mistakes. I lose parts or entire fleets.

 When I used to play multiplayer, my friends weren't very good at all. They lost *LOTS* of ships. They quit the game because they hated refleeting and not being able to pick ships and planets in lobby.

 I attack an enemy homeworld. Unless i give myself an easy win with lobby options or I cheeeeeeese it, i need 1-3 fleets to destroy each homeworld.

 There's probably more, but those come to mind quickly!

edit: also, i capture a fabricator or unlock a cool new toy. Some of the caps cost 1-2 million to build. I wanna play with my toys. I need to build my toys to play with my toys.

edit2: phone rings, cat barfs, house catches fire, balls need scratching, i get distracted, i make mistakes, i lose ships
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 06:01:17 pm by Qatu »

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2013, 07:31:31 pm »
Maybe it's because the "bank" at the beginning of a 14 hour game is the same as the bank at the end of a 14 hour game, which is wildly different in terms of what comprises your fleets and the galaxy itself. Maybe we need to look at a little bit of scaling to be some fraction of the total resource cost of available ship construction.
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline Diazo

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,717
  • I love/hate Diff 10
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2013, 09:26:13 pm »
Well, how about some actual numbers.

Single-HW, full cap of Fighters/Bombers/Frigates (the triangle) Mk I-III: 2,150,400 resources.

Cap of Flagship Mk I-III: 1,400,000
Cap of Zenith I-III:1,400,000
Cap of Spire SS I-III: 1,400,000
Cap of Dreadnaught i-III: 1,400,000
Cap of Bomber SS I-III: 1,400,000

All (combat) starships are the same? Didn't know that.

Anyways, some food for thought. Personally I would not rate a cap of a single starship I-III as 70% effective as a cap of I-III of the triangle ships, but I suppose this is where we pay for the survivability of starships.

(Actually I remember Keith saying something about that back during the Starship revamp, Knowledge was paying for damage, Resources paying for survivability, can someone confirm I recall that correctly?)

D.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #50 on: December 15, 2013, 01:14:16 am »
"Reclaimable scrap" for dead large things seems like an awesome idea. It would give those cleanup drones a use again. (Do AI's get cleanup drones?)

Re the swallowers, yea, those bugs with some spawn sources not respecting ship types being disabled is annoying; hopefully it can be fixed soon (I play with no such ship roles disabled, but I understand these bugs really skew the balance in the cases of people doing so)

I do agree the OMD was overbuffed, which isn't helping the issue. Again, my opinion on it is that it's current range + damage (and DPS) + spawn rate all together make it OP. Even if only one of these is nerfed, and it will be fine. Which one(s) to nerf though is the question.

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #51 on: December 15, 2013, 11:42:59 am »
Well, how about some actual numbers.

Single-HW, full cap of Fighters/Bombers/Frigates (the triangle) Mk I-III: 2,150,400 resources.

Cap of Flagship Mk I-III: 1,400,000
Cap of Zenith I-III:1,400,000
Cap of Spire SS I-III: 1,400,000
Cap of Dreadnaught i-III: 1,400,000
Cap of Bomber SS I-III: 1,400,000

All (combat) starships are the same? Didn't know that.

Anyways, some food for thought. Personally I would not rate a cap of a single starship I-III as 70% effective as a cap of I-III of the triangle ships, but I suppose this is where we pay for the survivability of starships.

(Actually I remember Keith saying something about that back during the Starship revamp, Knowledge was paying for damage, Resources paying for survivability, can someone confirm I recall that correctly?)

D.


I think the math is a little bit worse than you thought (on the percentages and effectiveness), because you typically can't research both lines and full capacities at the same time.


Are these statements true, from a design perspective?


* "you can have starships, but we are going to make you watch a Netflix movie if you lose a battle."
* "you can have starships if you are willing to wait real-life hours for them."
* "starships cost more because they are easier to win with."
* "Resource cost varies directly with ease of strategy."


These are legitimate design questions. I'm not passing judgment on them. But I think we need to know what the purpose of these resource costs are and what the general consensus is on how long it should take to refleet.



Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #52 on: December 15, 2013, 01:20:14 pm »
"Reclaimable scrap" for dead large things seems like an awesome idea. It would give those cleanup drones a use again. (Do AI's get cleanup drones?)
I agree, it sounds like a neat idea - but I don't think it does much to address the problem raised in this thread. 

Single-HW, full cap of Fighters/Bombers/Frigates (the triangle) Mk I-III: 2,150,400 resources.
Cap of Flagship Mk I-III: 1,400,000
[...]
Anyways, some food for thought. Personally I would not rate a cap of a single starship I-III as 70% effective as a cap of I-III of the triangle ships, but I suppose this is where we pay for the survivability of starships.
Resource recovery from starship remains is basically a way to temporarily increase the player's income, with the potential caveat of being unable to recover the remains.  However, fleetships will usually be the primary resource drain, and I assume no one is suggesting that fleetships will leave remains.  That means that even with a fantastic 25% resource recovery rate, your refleet time will still be very large.  Mk I-III of the Combat Starships is 7,000,000 resouces, and the absurdly high 25% of that is still only 1,750,000 - less than the cost of the Mk I-III fleetships.


Basically, there seem to be three possible ways to reduce refleet time:
1)  Reduce resource costs.
2)  Increase player income.
3)  Increase the player's resource cap.

1)  Reducing resource costs across the board is roughly the same as increasing both the cap and the income simultaneously.  I assume instead that some of the high cost items, like TDLs, LT-Fs, or starships, would be the only units to receive reduced costs.  Right now the have 50-67% the damage and 150-200% HP for 150-200% cost.  If the cost comes down significantly, one of the other two also needs to come down for balance.  Disposable starships is not in the plans right now, I think.  (Although a disposable Neinzul combat starship might be amusing... 10:00 lifespan, no repair...)  But weaker starships means you need more of them, with all associated increased build costs. 

2)  Not happening.  Anyone still remember build 5.035, the first Harvester re-balance attempt?  By bringing harvesters "in-line" with Econ stations, the player economy became incredibly overpowered.  That patch got me my first 10/10 win, at a time I was still losing more than half my 9/9 games.  A high enough income basically means the player can never be defeated, unless a single attack is so strong as to crush ALL human resistance at once.

3)  It allows players to "pre-pay" the re-fleeting costs.  It also makes economic techs even more powerful, since that extra production is unlikely to go to waste.  It also means that it makes it even harder for the AI to kill the player quickly, since a large reserve could keep a re-fleet cycle going much longer, even when the game is otherwise lost.  Of course, with the invention of the smart Threatfleet, the AI has basically given up on the idea of attrition warfare anyway, so this may be less of an impact than I think.

Remains recovery is a sub category of #2.  Econ Stations is part of #3.  A suggestion from last time, allowing the player to build his own distribution nodes, is also a variant of #3.

Honestly, I don't know if there is an easy solution.  Nothing that been suggested seems to work, and there aren't a lot of other ideas I can see.




I do agree the OMD was overbuffed, which isn't helping the issue. Again, my opinion on it is that it's current range + damage (and DPS) + spawn rate all together make it OP. Even if only one of these is nerfed, and it will be fine. Which one(s) to nerf though is the question.
 
This is off-topic for this thread, but I disagree.  I really like the OMD as it stands now.  It's like an Ion Cannon for starships.  It actually makes you concerned when you find one, and you need to plan how to deal with it.  They're also rather rare - Aside from AI Homeworlds and Core worlds, you see them in less than 1% of systems (except Peacemaker, of course).

Offline Diazo

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,717
  • I love/hate Diff 10
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2013, 01:21:39 pm »
Well, if we are going to follow that train of thought, I'm seeing two issues.

The first is that as new stuff gets added, it has (almost) all been in the superweapon category. This drives resource demands up to maintain the superweapons, but the fleet ships are getting left behind in the dust.

Second, and probably driven by the first, is that starships used to be true superweapons, but as other stuff got added starships went from "good superweapon" to "pathetic superweapon" to the "strong fleetship" that we have today.

But in terms of resource costs, starships never left the superweapon tier, despite the fact that they are more of a Strong Fleetship in a combat situation.

So, I think the first question that needs answering is:

Should a starship only game be viable?

If yes, starship construction needs an overhaul so that losing most of your starship fleet does not cause a NetFlix alt-tab.

If no, should starships return to the superweapon teir (with appropriate tweaks), or should starships be turned into support ships that require fleet ships along to be truly effective?

Right now, starship only games are viable from a combat (tactical) standpoint, but from a resource standpoint they are too expensive to replace losses so over time (strategic) they can not be maintained.

D.


edit: @Cyborg: I kind of stated the same thing with my comment about resources, but it comes back to the fact that originally, a starship only game was not viable. You'd make a few starships (maybe) to support your fleet units, but because of that you were never looking at wholesale starship losses.


The other thing  is that the starships thing is supposed to be survivability. Well, when attacking AI core and homeworlds, you can't guarantee the survivability of anything, so starships are poorly suited to end game attacks as their major strength can not be brought into play.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 01:30:23 pm by Diazo »

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2013, 02:32:48 pm »
While slightly tangential, there might be something that would encourage people to retreat rather than refleet.

Reduced cost of repairs over building.

Now, repairing is already discounted I believe, though I don't recall by how much.  But the thing that used to be true (and was a bug and is no longer true) and because it is no longer true, repairing became "less viable":

Upgraded marks of engineers use resources faster.  They aren't more efficient, they're simply faster but when you're bottomed out on resources, this increase in speed is actually harmful, as you'll burn through your reserves more quickly.

I think it was when that bug was fixed that I started having economy problems.  I haven't ever unlocked higher mark engineers since unless I have run out of engineers to maintain every planet and simply needed more cap.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2013, 11:10:27 pm »
Isn't the repair rate like 25% or 12.5% or something? How low should it be? 10% seems to be pretty standard among most RTSs I have seen, but then again, I really haven't played all that many of them.

I don't think the "reclaimable scrap" idea is truly going to solve the "Netflix issue"; I just thought it would be a good thing for this game (didn't Total Annihilation and spin-offs have a similar mechanic?)

Warning, rambling ahead:


TBH, I think this issue may just be an almost inevitable result of "deathball style" play. Without huge rewards for retreating instead of "fighting to the death" beyond time to recover*, there isn't really much reason to avoid a deathball. "Deathball style" play is efficient enough to "optimal" fleet management, and is "competitively viable" (as much as that term makes sense in a PvE sort of game), aka, not too terribly high rewards for going beyond "a-move".

This is in part due to a largely reactionary foe (which is by design), but also due to the de-emphasis of micro being needed to make fleets perform well as a design goal. This is, IMO, a good thing, but without something else in play, "deathball play" becomes an "encouraged" style of play. Take a look at SC2 vs SC1:BW for a comparison. (Though, admittedly, much, but not all, of the depth and reward of the micro was due to learning how to "fight" the UI, which is not exactly a good thing ;)) So, SC2 has sort of fallen into a similar "pickle" as this, slow periods of "nothing" interspersed with a "big battle" that will either result in one side loosing too much and the other "deathball" just face rolling everything, or both players losing near everything and you are right back to a "slow rebuild" time for both sides. This is in no small part because although SC2 raised the "skill floor" by reducing "bad" reasons to need micro (fighting the UI and such), they didn't do much to raise the skill ceiling (in fact, it went down a bit due to SC2's quirks in the engine usually hurting micro reward instead of increasing it like SC1's quirks did, a unfortunate coincidence). Thus the skill floor of army management "deathball A-move" got close enough to the skill ceiling (perfect per-unit micro) that "deathball A-move" became nearly the standard (thankfully, pure A-move won't get you far in high level SC2, it isn't that bad, but it isn't too far off).

My long rambling paragraph above is really just showing that this "deathball" army style of play being encouraged by the game, the "a-move to the death" being "good enough" in this game, and these "refleet time" issues (which includes how player economy works) are all connected in complex ways. And also, that I don't have the answers, and this is not the first game to run into these sorts of design issues. *shrug*

Also, I repeat, I can't really offer any concrete solutions to the problem as I haven't personally experienced these sorts of long refleet times.

*which often the AI fails to take advantage of because they have to recover from your attacks as well, and won't have enough to counter attack during your weakness time except for rare coincidences with timing or on higher difficulties

EDIT: "Deathball" style can be more accurately described as the more "conventional" term for this forum, the ship "blob", as it is hard for the human to amass any sort of army that could reasonably stand up to the "AI's best".
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 03:14:44 am by TechSY730 »

Offline Tridus

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,305
  • I'm going to do what I do best: lecture her!
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2013, 07:35:23 am »
While slightly tangential, there might be something that would encourage people to retreat rather than refleet.

Reduced cost of repairs over building.

Now, repairing is already discounted I believe, though I don't recall by how much.  But the thing that used to be true (and was a bug and is no longer true) and because it is no longer true, repairing became "less viable":

Upgraded marks of engineers use resources faster.  They aren't more efficient, they're simply faster but when you're bottomed out on resources, this increase in speed is actually harmful, as you'll burn through your reserves more quickly.

I think it was when that bug was fixed that I started having economy problems.  I haven't ever unlocked higher mark engineers since unless I have run out of engineers to maintain every planet and simply needed more cap.

Unless you're playing on epic speed, stuff tends to die so quickly that retreating a damaged but not destroyed ship isn't overly viable most of the time. For really durable Starships it is, but other stuff dies so fast that the benefit of retreating is keeping some of it from being blown up rather than having damaged stuff you can repair for cheap.

(Or if you have stuff like Enclaves and Protectors in the vicinity, as they reduce incoming damage and provide distractions to make it easier to retreat damaged ships successfully.)

Offline Diazo

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,717
  • I love/hate Diff 10
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2013, 10:48:23 am »
For the record, best as I can tell is that repair costs 12.5% of what building that unit would cost, proportionally. (So repairing a unit from 0% to 100% costs 12.5%, from 50% costs 6.25%, etc.) This is true for all repair sources now.

Before the 5.050 repair fix, base repair costs was 25% of build costs, so twice what we have now. However, the fix changed it so higher repair rates were no longer more effective. So yes, repairs got more expensive as the Mk I engy used to repair at 4.25% and the Mk III at 2.1% of build costs.

This also happened during the energy generation system overhaul as well when we moved to getting energy for free (at least the collectors) so they were seen as somewhat balancing out.

Note that engineers have increased repair rates. The engy Mk II with is repair rate of 9 will consume 112% the resources per second while repair then it would assisting a space dock to build the same unit. However repairs take much less time due to that same multiplyer so it only last a very short time.

This also happened in the lead up to the Ancient Shadows release. 5.050 fixed the repair costs to be consistent and 5.051 dropped the repair costs from 25% to 12.5%, and as things seemed okay the issue got buried under the AS release.

Looks like we are going to revisit the issue now.

Should we look at dropping repair costs even farther? This gives you (more) incentive to retreat your superunits to repair them rather then rebuild them and so helps avoid having to refleet everything.

More of a workaround then a fix for having to refleet, true. But I'm still of the opinion that if you have lost your entire mobile fleet you've screwed up, badly, and the AI should be in a position to hurt you badly or even win the game.

I'm not sure how to keep that window of opportunity for the AI while at the same time making it so that the NetFlix rebuild does not happen.

D.

Offline Draco18s

  • Resident Velociraptor
  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,251
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2013, 11:36:44 am »
[Details]

Thanks for that Diazo.  I wasn't sure what the rates were any more.

Still though, the Mark 2 consumes approximately the same resources-per-second that it takes to construct the unit (with no help).  Higher marks consume even more (per time-slice).  Now I'm not sure that this is a problem that needs to be looked at, but I thought I'd shine a light on it and start some discussion.  I do agree that the old effective costs were very much on the low end (2-5% cost) but I'm not sure what the right cost should be.

@Tridus: I play low caps on Epic.  Fleet ships tend to survive encounters at rates high enough that I can retreat damaged ones into transports as they hit the Red Zone (as well as do things like pop Raid starships back through wormholes to recharge their force fields).

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2013, 04:51:09 pm »
More of a workaround then a fix for having to refleet, true. But I'm still of the opinion that if you have lost your entire mobile fleet you've screwed up, badly, and the AI should be in a position to hurt you badly or even win the game.
I know you and I have wildly different play styles - I focus very heavily on fixed defenses.  I build fortresses on my HW early, and first first hack/capture targets are almost always the Core Turret Controllers.  So when I fleetwipe, I don't care: my fixed defenses will keep me safe from anything but a CPA.  However, a fleetwipe means my offensive is stalled, and I have nothing to do until I've rebuilt.  And that means Netfilx time.

I'm not sure how to keep that window of opportunity for the AI while at the same time making it so that the NetFlix rebuild does not happen.
And this, I agree, is the heart of the problem.  Waiting to rebuild is boring.  But if there is no wait to rebuild, the AI can't win.  That's what we saw in 5.031 when Harvester IIIs suddenly gave 73/sec.
I think the only solution is to enforce some sort of trade off onto the player.  You want shorter refleet times?  Sure, but you've got to give up something else in exchange!  But what...
-  Increased resource caps mean that the player can waste one fleet, or two, but needs even more time to refill the reserve.  This is probably the simplest solution, but may have other impacts.
-  A structure that provides a reduction in costs or increased income, but has a system-wide negative % damage multiplier?
-  Maybe something that increased your resource production, or discounted costs, or reduced build times, in relation to your excess energy?  Since fleet size and energy are inversely proportional, you are likely to have a lot of excess energy after a fleetwipe, but very little after you are rebuilt.  If the rate is non-linear so there is a significant fall-off, you can greatly speed up part of the rebuilding, without making it too easy to completely rebuild.  (logistic?)
-  Maybe something like a Resource Hacker - Gives you resources, but triggers an AI response.

Another idea is to have the AI try to time attacks based on how many human units it kills.  Aka, cause a fleetwipe, send an immediate wave.  Then, even if the human refleets faster, the AI is more likely to try to take advantage of it.

Yet another idea - see if the game can be set to go faster than +10 speed.