Author Topic: Refleeting is still way too long  (Read 27207 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2013, 09:15:15 am »
Yea, FS city hubs should probably increase the resource cap.  The difficulty there is that it may encourage a kind of reverse-netflix syndrome where you're all ready to go but you alt tab to something else to let your resources finish filling up (or nearly so) so you don't have to wait for them later.

Good point on the high-marks starships, too.
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Offline Diazo

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2013, 10:12:14 am »
Actually, what about a salvage unit?

Every unit that is over X cost in resources leaves a wreck behind when it dies that is worth Y% of the unit's cost. Then using a similar mechanic to the distribution node, if you can get the salvage unit to the wreck you get those resources back.

I can certainly see cheese potential in stacking up wrecks to stock up on resources, but I think that would still be a better situation then now when a total refleet means you are simply sitting around.

Or make it more complex somehow (very weak response similar to hacking?) that gives the player something to do while they wait for their fleet to rebuild. And depending on how successful they are reduces the time/resources required to rebuild their fleet.

D.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2013, 10:21:00 am »
Hmm, salvage sounds interesting, particularly if you can also salvage AI wrecks ("that's not a chokepoint, that's a chop-shop").  It could finally be a purpose for the vestigial Cleanup Drone ;)  And their FRD logic could probably take care of it without your needing to do much.

My main concerns:
1) Is that actually fun?
2) Does it actually address the refleeting issue?
3) That's a lot of wrecks, so RAM may not thank you.  Though we've optimized the "remains" thing pretty well.  And if it's only the bigger stuff that leaves wrecks (as humorous as youngling wrecks could be) that wouldn't be too bad.  And the wrecks could just disappear if not cleaned up for 30 minutes.

Bear in mind that graphically it would just be some kind of generic debris; doing wrecked textures for a bunch of ship types isn't in the cards ;)
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2013, 10:26:57 am »
Actually, what about a salvage unit?

Every unit that is over X cost in resources leaves a wreck behind when it dies that is worth Y% of the unit's cost. Then using a similar mechanic to the distribution node, if you can get the salvage unit to the wreck you get those resources back.

Stop stealing my ideas!
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(Every unit leaves a wreck worth 75% of its build cost--the power crystal, which every unit has and uses exactly 1 of as it is a resource that is effectively the unit cap--is always recovered.)

Alternatively I suggest a mechanic that AI War has already demonstrated: broken.  As in, turret remains, brokens golems, and the like.

However there is a problem with both ideas:
If we're leaving wrecks on heavily AI controlled planets (say, at the foot of a Mark 3 fortress) it would be impossible to recover those units/resources until after a refleet and a stomping all over the place that killed the originals.  So it doesn't wholly solve the problem, just shifts it around some.

Hmm, salvage sounds interesting, particularly if you can also salvage AI wrecks ("that's not a chokepoint, that's a chop-shop").  It could finally be a purpose for the vestigial Cleanup Drone ;)  And their FRD logic could probably take care of it without your needing to do much.

My main concerns:
1) Is that actually fun?
2) Does it actually address the refleeting issue?
3) That's a lot of wrecks, so RAM may not thank you.  Though we've optimized the "remains" thing pretty well.  And if it's only the bigger stuff that leaves wrecks (as humorous as youngling wrecks could be) that wouldn't be too bad.  And the wrecks could just disappear if not cleaned up for 30 minutes.

Bear in mind that graphically it would just be some kind of generic debris; doing wrecked textures for a bunch of ship types isn't in the cards ;)

Touching on this some (stop ninjaing me, Keith).

Addressed point 2 already.  1: Yes, I think it would be.  On 3: I imagine it would be any unit that has a starship-like cost or unit cap.  So all starships (except cloakers and scouts) and things like the lightning torpedo frigate, spire-city units, and so on.
Possible exceptions from the rule:
Golems (supposed to be one-shot)
Asteroid spirecraft (supposed to be one-shot)
Anything with self-destruct lifespan, regardless of cost (this would capture most golems anyway).  This mostly covers any potential future units, say a youngling starship (might have a lifespan of 30 minutes and cost a hefty sum, or somesuch).
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 10:31:57 am by Draco18s »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2013, 11:07:13 am »
However there is a problem with both ideas:
If we're leaving wrecks on heavily AI controlled planets (say, at the foot of a Mark 3 fortress) it would be impossible to recover those units/resources until after a refleet and a stomping all over the place that killed the originals.  So it doesn't wholly solve the problem, just shifts it around some.
To some extent, but there's some mitigating factors:

1) Just because the wrecks are on powerful AI worlds doesn't make recovery impossible, just potentially hard.  And I have it on good authority that you lot are effective problem solvers.  An Assault Transport loaded to the gills with cleanup drones, I imagine, could make an effective team for corpse-runs.

2) As long as solving said problem isn't too tedious, it actually gives you something to do towards the refleeting goal that isn't "watch netflix".

3) If AI units are leaving wrecks too, your defensive worlds will probably accumulate a pile of them, and any attacks that come in during your refleet will contribute to the cause, so to speak.  Or kill you, but that's the whole point.  Of course, many AI attacks are primarily fleet ships, and thus probably would only leave wrecks from the very small number of starships sent along, though the bigger fleet ships could leave wrecks too.


Anyway, not totally sold on the idea, but it's the most promising one yet, imo.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2013, 11:18:40 am »
3) If AI units are leaving wrecks too, your defensive worlds will probably accumulate a pile of them, and any attacks that come in during your refleet will contribute to the cause, so to speak.

Point.  When I was writing my reply this idea hadn't floated to the surface yet.

Also...now that I think about it, this might help late-game economies without turbocharging the early game ones.  Think about it: every wave will leave AI wrecks for you to recover for resources, more so than early game waves (both on account of being larger as well as more frequently containing wreck-capable units).

Potentially brilliant idea: upgrades for the clean-up drone.  The Mk1 recovers, say 10% of a wreck's value whereas a Mk3 recovers 75%, or whatever values are deemed appropriate.  Small Knowledge investment (500 per new mark?) and the lategame economy is boosted even more.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 11:21:31 am by Draco18s »

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2013, 11:31:26 am »
Every unit that is over X cost in resources leaves a wreck behind when it dies that is worth Y% of the unit's cost.
That would actually make people use Cleanup Drones. It's almost like they don't exist atm. They're only useful vs Mine Enthuasiast.
This would also help recovering from CPAs and exos. Very good idea imo.
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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2013, 12:00:00 pm »
Every unit that is over X cost in resources leaves a wreck behind when it dies that is worth Y% of the unit's cost.
That would actually make people use Cleanup Drones. It's almost like they don't exist atm. They're only useful vs Mine Enthuasiast.
This would also help recovering from CPAs and exos. Very good idea imo.

Having to protect the cleanup crew from follow-up attacks?
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Offline Tridus

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2013, 12:16:40 pm »
Yea, FS city hubs should probably increase the resource cap.  The difficulty there is that it may encourage a kind of reverse-netflix syndrome where you're all ready to go but you alt tab to something else to let your resources finish filling up (or nearly so) so you don't have to wait for them later.

Good point on the high-marks starships, too.

Maybe, but they have the problem right now where once I get to the third one, I've got enough worlds and resources that when I'm not building stuff (say because I'm getting ready to go take another shard) I'm capping resources really quickly. So I wind up building a SuperFortress or something because otherwise I'm just losing resources to nothing.

Then when I do start building, I run out of resources in a few minutes. I mean if you really go nuts on assisting the city production, you can get the city hub up (and bankrupt yourself) in two minutes. After that the entire rest of the city has to be built on normal resources, plus the ships that will come from getting that city's shipyards up. Once all that's done (and it takes quite a while), I'll go unpause the SuperFortress again because shortly after that I'm back at cap. (Or the Mercenary dock, but that already has a nice solution in using a control group to make it pause itself when you need it to.)

Of course, the downside to doing something about that is that if I don't bother building the SuperFortress and the cap is higher, I'm gaining less out of economic upgrades and may not need to do them anymore. I mean harvester upgrades in a FS game are just plain awesome because they give you more speed building everything right now. If the cap is tripled and I'm using my current "trader goodie building" time to just fill the bigger cap instead, when I do start building I have so much more room that I may not need the harvester upgrades anymore.

Offline Diazo

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2013, 12:47:49 pm »
However there is a problem with both ideas:
If we're leaving wrecks on heavily AI controlled planets (say, at the foot of a Mark 3 fortress) it would be impossible to recover those units/resources until after a refleet and a stomping all over the place that killed the originals.  So it doesn't wholly solve the problem, just shifts it around some.

Well, I trying to not give the player free resources for nothing here.

Suicide your entire fleet into a Mk III fort? Ya, those resources are gone.

Botch an attack for some reason and realize you need to run away but don't make it out? Or even know you are not going to make it out so you send your fleet off to the edge of the system. Those wrecks should be reasonably easy to recover, and doable with a small number of units that while waiting for your refleet you can be occupied recovering wrecks.

One important caveat to how I envision this working is that if you've lost your entire fleet, you've screwed up badly somewhere and are now paying for it. I'm concerned with the late-game rebuilding of super-weapons here that bankrupt your economy.

After all, if you are going to use a unit, you accept the possibility of losing that unit.

Hmm, salvage sounds interesting, particularly if you can also salvage AI wrecks ("that's not a chokepoint, that's a chop-shop").  It could finally be a purpose for the vestigial Cleanup Drone ;)  And their FRD logic could probably take care of it without your needing to do much.

My main concerns:
1) Is that actually fun?

I think just about anything would be better then what currently happens during a rebuild. My most common activity is punching scouts farther out during that down time, but once I've got the entire map scouted I'm sitting there twiddling my thumbs.

Note that I'm using rebuild in the sense of it's a relatively short down time. I simply don't do attacks where I lose my entire fleet so at worst, I'm rebuilding maybe half my fleet and what I've got left is still capable of launching attacks against weaker targets.

If it's a situation where the only way I could attack would result in losing my entire fleet, I break the warheads out. (And yes, I've the full cap of 18 lighting warheads at a 10,000 unit CPA before, still lost the game but the loss was not due to the warhead AIP.)

Quote
2) Does it actually address the refleeting issue?
I think so. It gives you something to do that has a purpose as the better you are at recovering wrecks, the less time your refleet takes.
Quote

3) That's a lot of wrecks, so RAM may not thank you.  Though we've optimized the "remains" thing pretty well.  And if it's only the bigger stuff that leaves wrecks (as humorous as youngling wrecks could be) that wouldn't be too bad.  And the wrecks could just disappear if not cleaned up for 30 minutes.

Bear in mind that graphically it would just be some kind of generic debris; doing wrecked textures for a bunch of ship types isn't in the cards ;)
Certainly it would be the bigger stuff only. A wreck that only gets you 500 resources back is pretty pointless.

Also, when looking only at fleet ships, the current resource cap does feel right. It's when we get into super-weapons that the cap feels small, and recovering wrecks is effectively a resource cap increase when using superweapons without actually increasing the resource cap.

D.

edit: I just realized there is one big variable we've missed. Multi-HW starts.

I play "small" games with a single-HW and most super-weapons turned off and most of the time the current cap is fine for me.

However, a 4-HW start losing half it's fleet is (roughly) 4 times the resources to rebuild that losing half my single-HW fleet would be, but the resource cap stays the same.

I could support a scaling resource cap for multi-HW starts, maybe an extra 300,000 each of metal/crystal for each additional planet?

Multi-HW start has other offsetting advantages (notably more resource income) so this resource cap increase does need to have diminishing returns.

D.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 12:59:57 pm by Diazo »

Offline Eternaly_Lost

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2013, 01:14:46 pm »
If your only option is to simply dump all your ships in and accept losing them all you have either 1) screwed up earlier and have lost the game or 2) there's something imbalanced in the game that needs fixing.


I am not sure if this quailies, but trying to get though a 100 world SP force for the end game, generally takes me 3 or 4 refleets before I whittle them down enough to take them out.

Granted, half of that is because the SF still have a tendency to redeploy in the middle of the fight. So I half-kill a few thousands ships and they just respawn at full Hp.

keith.lamothe still has not found the cause from the games I put up, but I am starting to notice a trend that it never happens right way, so I often go, save and reload before a big fight to stop it.

It tends to happen more often as the time goes up, making me think that due to the sizes in the battle, I bet the AI forgets that I am there fighting it, and as soon as it puts the ships away, realizes that I was there attacking it.

To be fair, I bet to it sensors it does not see a fleet, it see a solid wall of weapons coming at them between all the lance weapons.


Offline tadrinth

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2013, 07:56:04 pm »
Making the resource cap dynamic in one or more ways might help.  If it scaled up with FS cities, multiple homeworlds, and/or planets taken, that might help with lategame refleets.  Maybe command centers increase the cap, with economics increasing it more? Then it adds an additional nuance to the tradeoff between economic stations vs harvesters.

Changing the 'suspend resources' option to a percent (maybe a slider) would probably be necessary (although I think that would be a great change regardless, I already added it to mantis). 

I do kind of like the starship remains harvesting idea.  If only big things are harvestable, then it isn't something you hav eto worry about all the time but do want to worry about some of the time; starship or bigger is probably the right cutoff.  I dislike the idea of different marks of cleanup drones.  Do I really want to plan around losing my starships?  I don't think they'd be worth upgrading just to get more resources out of killing enemy starships... unless you're up against an AI that sends extras in waves.  Also, what happens if a low-mark drone beats a high-mark drone to a wreck? 

I really like the idea of getting a resource boost for killing Dire Guardians.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2013, 08:01:26 pm by tadrinth »

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2013, 05:26:00 am »
Just to have mentioned it, I suggest that there be some capturable structures that boost the resource cap.
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Offline LordSloth

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2013, 02:03:50 pm »
I'd simply like to see Mk2/3 economic command stations raise the resource cap. By nature of using command stations, it would scale up to crazy high AIP games like Fallen Spire, or conquer the universe games.

Now sometimes I rebuild my commands when a CPA is coming in, but I'd have a reason to actually keep an econ or two up instead of military/logistics.

Offline Qatu

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Re: Refleeting is still way too long
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2013, 02:06:51 pm »
 I don't think this would solve the issue that refleets can be wayyyyy too long, but it would be a very nice feature if all command stations raised the resource cap, something like econs 1/2/3 raise by 100k/200k/300k, and mil/log 1/2/3 by 50k/100k/150k.