Author Topic: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."  (Read 7584 times)

Offline Philo

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2011, 10:17:08 pm »
Engineers cost a huge load of money so I don't like to lose them on random planets. I usually just keep my Lvl 3 engineers as a CTRL group and teleport them wherever there's need.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2011, 10:21:30 pm »
Edit: For the above poster, yes I'm all for at least a 5 min. delay in the auto-build of Command Stations. In large maps it can take 2 minutes just for the Colony ship to travel all the way to your places.

You're forgetting the fact that it requires supply. How in the world could it take 2 minutes to get a colony ship to a planet in supply? Drop it next to the wormhole and then click the ship and ctrl + click on the wormhole. It's there in however much time it takes your engineers to build it.

Well, for me personally, I keep one engineer one every world to help out, until my empire gets big. Then, as part of managament downsizing / maximizing a limited resource, I just keep my engineers on either key defensive or production facilities. If I build a colony ship out in the middle of nowhere, I got to wait the 30 seconds for it to build, then I got to take the time to tell it where to build (another 15 seconds)

so for me it take a minute, after adding 15 seconds because odds are I'm telling the defending fleet to move to defend the station about to be created. So it still a minute, assuming I micro it. If a crises comes up between that initial building of the colony ship and telling it to build 45 seconds later, it may be two or three minutes before I can get back to building it. If I have to do this 20 times in a game, I just spent at least 10 minutes on actions just related to rebuilding that could be used managing my fleet, economy, or anything else.

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Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2011, 11:20:44 pm »
Slow down, slow down. You're posting enough for two or three days worth of lazy reading.

Solid conditions, then: Supply, and no AI presence.

I haven't made a mantis post yet, and I'm too tired to explain the whole thing over there right now. Someone else do it and take the credit; because I think it's a good idea.

Macromanagement FTW.
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Offline Buttons840

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2011, 11:33:26 pm »
Well, I consider it a game element. If you could automatically rebuild, you inheriently gain more time to do other things.

Not really, when we consider the pause feature, you have an infinite amount of time to do anything anytime.  The feature saves the player some annoyance, but it doesn't really allow you to do anything new.

When I speak of instant rebuilding I don't mean the command station instantly re-appears at full health.  I mean a new command station starts building, and then must go through it's normal build process which usually takes 1 to 3 minutes unless assisted.  This would be about 10 seconds faster than before - as said, it's trivial to build a command station in an area which already has supply, and no enemies present.

I just quit a 6-hour game because I had about 11 planets, but I couldn't hide them all behind a choke point and after 3 hour passed without me making any progress, spending all my time baby-sitting and rebuilding command stations and otherwise being bored out of my mind with trivial tasks.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2011, 11:45:41 pm »
Well, I consider it a game element. If you could automatically rebuild, you inheriently gain more time to do other things.

Not really, when we consider the pause feature, you have an infinite amount of time to do anything anytime.  The feature saves the player some annoyance, but it doesn't really allow you to do anything new.

When I speak of instant rebuilding I don't mean the command station instantly re-appears at full health.  I mean a new command station starts building, and then must go through it's normal build process which usually takes 1 to 3 minutes unless assisted.  This would be about 10 seconds faster than before - as said, it's trivial to build a command station in an area which already has supply, and no enemies present.

I just quit a 6-hour game because I had about 11 planets, but I couldn't hide them all behind a choke point and after 3 hour passed without me making any progress, spending all my time baby-sitting and rebuilding command stations and otherwise being bored out of my mind with trivial tasks.

Well the problem is that it even rebuilding the command station doesn't stop from distracting the AI, so you can toy with the AI a lot in doing so. And unless you warp in that colony ship, it still takes a minute or two during which you construct and bring that ship over so I consider it a bonus.

But I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I think it is a bonus, you think it makes things easier. We are describing the exact same thing, and I don't want to bicker on details that a dev will decide, assuming this idea takes off at all.
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Offline Buttons840

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2011, 12:03:13 am »
Well the problem is that it even rebuilding the command station doesn't stop from distracting the AI, so you can toy with the AI a lot in doing so.

There is no AI.  The proposed feature only works when the AI is not present on the planet.  You can't use it to toy with the AI, because the AI is not on the planet.

I posted on Mantis: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=3040

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2011, 09:02:36 am »
Thanks, Butt.

One alternative I could think of is that when the CC is destroyed, and no AI remains on the planet, and it's still in supply, then a Colony Ship (if they aren't capped) is built on the nearest planet with orders to move over there and reestablish the CC. In that way, you really have absolutely nothing you couldn't do on your own.
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Offline Buttons840

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2011, 10:37:57 am »
Yeah, that's just as good I guess.  How would the colony ship know where to build the new command station though?

Both ideas seem the same.

In both cases the CC is destroyed, and the player does nothing but wait a while and then the command station is rebuilt.  I think automating the colony ship might requires a little more programming, and in the end it does the same thing.  But like I said, I'd be happy either way as both solutions save me from the distraction of having to rebuild.

Offline Buttons840

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2011, 11:22:28 am »
Quote
For now, I think this is off the table. It just raises way too many potential balance issues, as others brought up in that thread, and it's something that gets into that territory of "the game playing itself" for me.

In most circumstances, losing so many planets should not be a routine thing. Sure, it happens sometimes -- otherwise the AI wouldn't be doing its job. But if it's happening more than every few hours, then either it's a matter of a very high difficulty or else inadequate defenses.

In a lot of senses, there is a tradeoff between how much you keep for your offensive fleet, and how much you use for defense. If you pour everything into offense, expect to lose a lot of planets routinely and have that added time cost of rebuilding, etc, that you're describing. That's more than a time cost, it also costs you resources and opportunity and so on.

If you don't like having to rebuild, build a more modest offensive fleet while having heavier and more concentrated defenses. That, rather than an automated system for rebuilding, is my suggestion to those that have this issue.

Well, X has closed the issue.  The distraction of constantly rebuilding is still a game breaker for me, so I'll have to stick to the more traditional strategies of hiding behind a super choke-point and not expand so loosely - although expanding loosely is viable, it just ends up taking to many hours of rebuilding and baby-sitting.  It's a matter of player inconvenience rather than poor strategy.

One thing I find funny though:  Pretend the discussion was about whether to allow turrets to be auto-rebuilt (as is currently the case).  X's response fits perfectly in that context as well, saying that "auto-rebuilding turrets is the game playing itself, you shouldn't be losing turrets that often, defend more if needed."  The central argument being that the game plays itself, but there are many aspects of this game where it plays itself already - just look at control nodes, auto-rebuilding turrets, and FRD mode.

I am glad the game plays itself in these contexts.  It would only take a few seconds to issue an attack order every time a few enemies wander into your space, but the game does it automatically with FRD.  It would only take a few seconds to replace destroyed turrets by hand, but the game does it automatically.  It would only take a few seconds to look over your planets and make sure all your engineers are in FRD mode, but the game does this automatically with a control option.  I'm glad the game "plays itself" in these contexts, as I'm not distracted, and can focus on more enjoyable parts of the game.

I don't see how rebuilding a command station is different.  It's equally distracting and yet trivially easy.  The common play style is to hide behind a super-defense so you can avoid the tedious micro involve in rebuilding.  That's a fine strategy, but not the only viable strategy.  My loose boarders are perfectly able to stop attacks, but I do lose a single station every now and then, because I haven't super-fortified a single planet.  Just like replacing turrets, replacing command station only takes a few easy seconds, but it's distracting and I don't enjoy it.

I guess I'll leave the matter by asking:  Does anyone (Draco?) actually enjoy rebuilding command stations?  When I start the game I'm excited to see if I can finally capture that ARS, or defeat the mark IV planet.  Are there some who start the game excited to rebuild command stations right next to planets they already control (with no enemy AI around)?  Some have already expressed an opinion that this is not fun, and so say take away the non-fun task, let the game play itself.

Offline Echo35

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2011, 11:45:57 am »
One thing I find funny though:  Pretend the discussion was about whether to allow turrets to be auto-rebuilt (as is currently the case).  X's response fits perfectly in that context as well, saying that "auto-rebuilding turrets is the game playing itself, you shouldn't be losing turrets that often, defend more if needed."  The central argument being that the game plays itself, but there are many aspects of this game where it plays itself already - just look at control nodes, auto-rebuilding turrets, and FRD mode.

Yes, turrets get destroyed rather frequently, and are vital to the defense of your planet. When you lose the command center, that's it. The planet is gone and there's nothing you can do about it but clear the AI out and take it back. Which is also part of the point. Asking the command center to rebuild itself is equivalent to asking the game to take planets for you. What if you want to change the type/location of the command center when you take it back? What if you want to outright abandon that planet anyway? Not that I hardly ever lose command centers in the first place, but the last thing I want is for the game to take it all back for me.

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2011, 05:50:26 pm »
I can't really bring myself to agree with the man. There is no real balance issue with the suggestions, especially when you take the auto-build-and-send-colony-ship approach. Then again, that wasn't posted on mantis...but I suspect posting that wouldn't result in much either. Sometimes, I suppose, X just wants to stick to his way  :-X
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Offline Buttons840

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2011, 07:06:22 pm »
Maybe I shouldn't reveal my secrets, but often if you put an idea in somebody head and then let it sit for awhile, then bring it up again they're more agreeable to the idea.

Offline Shrugging Khan

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2011, 07:28:39 pm »
I actually lost my mantis login somehow (how does that even happen? Was I banned?), but you may feel free to go in and make another suggestion, mr. B  :D
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Offline zebramatt

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2011, 06:53:17 am »
I agree with Chris!

Offline Sunshine!

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Re: Rebuilding is a big part of the "grind."
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2011, 01:49:06 pm »
I usually have 4 or so heavily defended planets outside of my home planet, and then I leave the rest pretty much undefended.  My playstyle basically necessitates frequently rebuilding undefended command stations as a necessary "buffer zone" to allow me time to get my fleet into position to intercept any large incoming enemy battlegroups.