Rebalancing normal AI guard posts

[keith.lamothe]

Oh, and Arachnid guard posts should at least be a threat to Shadow Frigate Champions, so a structural multiplier would be good at clearing down those force fields.

They don't have any multipliers (though the current set of changes adds a x0 multiplier vs scout hulls), it' just pure damage   I think 10M every 5 seconds would be enough to get the champion-FF's attention.

[Diazo]

Okay.

To directly illustrate the only real concern I have with this change:

Mk III system with nuclear eye.

MLRS Guard post under forcefield.

My only FF-immune unit is the raid starship, I unlocked fleet ships and do not have the K to unlock Raids Mk II.

3 Raids Mk I is cap -> 9 million HP will take 88 shots, that is 90 seconds assuming no raid SS dies.
MLRS has bonus against Raids -> 3 raids combined have 6 million HP. Mk III DPS is 150k/second x6 for the attack bonus. That is 7 seconds to kill all 3 raids.

That is a losing proposition, but because of the Nuclear Eye, I can't bring in my bomber swarm to brute force the FF down so I don't really have another option.

I could send in bomber SS, but I'm only going to have MK I of those as well. The MLRS does not have the attack bonus against the Bomber SS, but knocking that FF down is going to take forever and probably multiple suicide runs of the Bomber SS also.

Now, I'm not against this situation in principle as it would not be common and be a challenge, but as long as you are aware this change is going to cause things like this to happen everything should be okay.

D.

[snelg]

Is there a guard post with gravity (like the gravity turrents) yet?

I liked the passive guard post, it was sticking out a little from the rest (since it wasn't as murderous) is there a reason not to keep it or do they all need to be balanced compared to each other?

I think the changes should mostly be to try and give most guard posts a little more character, though a boost in strength might accomplish that.

[Hearteater]

To directly illustrate the only real concern I have with this change:

Mk III system with nuclear eye.

MLRS Guard post under forcefield.

Against Eyes in this case, you actually can use Bombers, you just need to ignore the AI fleet ships (because their presence prevents the Eye from triggering).  Typically I charge Force Fields/Spire Guard Posts and kill them first, typically with Transport bombs.  So you don't need FF immunity to get the job done, you just need to be careful to NOT kill the AI ships so you can bring a larger cap of units in.  I mean normally these types of systems have 100-150 ships when you are ready, so you can bring 200-300ish Bombers.  That's plenty to clear most shield structures.

[Vyndicu]

What if this mk 3 planet with FF and MRLS guard post is a gravity driller AI? Given that there are lot of long range (Sniper comes to mind) ships AI can use that would burn your bombers before it even get within range. Although I suspect this might not be the ONLY fringe case worth taking a look at.

For this case I would perhaps actually consider a spire penetrator mk 2 sacrifice to take down the MRLS post.

[Diazo]

That's why I said Mk III system though.

My bombers are going to get slaughtered before that FF goes down.

Now,  this specific example is picked to demonstrate the problem to make my point so it usually will not be this bad.

However, it is not uncommon for me to run into a Mk III system in the early-mid game and not have bomber IIs unlocked yet and having to capture a random system to get the K I need to unlock bombers is very much not of the good.

Having said that, I think I've made my point about ripple effects. This change to guard posts is going to be a lot more significant then just costing your fleet a few more ships to destroy said guard post due to the other structures guard posts tie into.

D.

[keith.lamothe]

Now, I'm not against this situation in principle as it would not be common and be a challenge, but as long as you are aware this change is going to cause things like this to happen everything should be okay.

Yea, I do realize it will tighten some nooses here and there.  In that particular case you can actually just brute-force it if you're willing to scrap enough ships to avoid triggering the nuke-eye in the last few seconds before it triggers.

If there's a grav drill too, AND the MLRS post is far enough from all viable entry points that you can't range on the post before the eye goes off... well, you have to make some other choices, like the feasibility of killing the grav drill, or using transports to bring in your forces, etc.

Anyway, yea, potentially serious ripple effects.  I like that, because it can entangle you tactically in ways the posts couldn't do before, but without making the posts super-combatants in their own right.

[LordSloth]

Snipers won't be a problem (is that counter-sniper ability of the scout starship documented in the tooltip), but Zenith Bombards may very well be. Cloaker starships and transported troops are also quite effective until the AI unlocks microfighters or sentinels.

Vague idea: after guard posts are respecced, buff armored warheads to function as AIP-costing guard post killers, keeping up with the new health values.

[Vyndicu]

Like I said some AI type could make your mk 3 FF/MRLS post case even worse with ripple effect which was the point I was trying to say.

Keith, I am fine with the ripple effects, given nasty combination AI type, situations, and post, as long it doesn't grind the entire game to a potential halt. In fact I am already making some tough choices just not with AI post currently.   

[Aeson]

The 'ripple effect' that concerns me most is what happens when all of the systems neighboring your homeworld are Mark III or Mark IV, especially if they happen to have something that attracts Special Forces intervention (which is possible, since I've seen Core Shield Generators spawn on worlds neighboring my homeworld before). Wearing that down will be a slog, even if you spent your first 13000 knowledge on fleet ships (or starships, but on one planet you don't really have the energy necessary for a sizable starship fleet). Granted, this isn't that likely on the more open map types, but on more constricted maps (X maps, mostly) I've run across games where not only were my one or two neighboring worlds were Mark III or Mark IV, but also all the worlds within two or three jumps of the homeworld were Mark III or higher. A Mark IV guardpost, if its Mark I version is to have roughly the firepower of a cap of Mark I fleet ships, is roughly as powerful as my entire Mark I fleet. When you throw in the defending ships, it starts looking like a game you don't really have a chance at winning.

Currently, if you start out with only Mark IV worlds as neighbors, the early game is more difficult than normal. If the guardposts get the kind of buff being considered here, where a single Mark I guardpost is equivalent to a cap of Mark I fleet ships, it starts to look like breaking out of your homeworld if you get that kind of starting position is almost impossible.

I don't mind seeing guardposts buffed, but I think making each post the firepower equivalent of a cap of same-mark fleet ships is too much. I'd sooner see them all brought in line in terms of firepower to the current MLRS and see how things are after that.

[Faulty Logic]

I don't mind seeing guardposts buffed, but I think making each post the firepower equivalent of a cap of same-mark fleet ships is too much.

They wouldn't be as nasty as the equivalent in fleetships. They only have 1/4 the health, and don't move. Starships can swoop into range, and back out before taking any hits, sending the fleetship counter more than makes up for mk differences, etc.

[TechSY730]

If the Anti-starship arachnid post, if they do get a chunky damage buff, they should get the "can only target large things" flag.

Other than that, yea, a similar level of firepower to a cap of the Mk. N fleet ships they are "modeled" after but with a fraction of the cap durability seems about right. (What fraction, I don't know. Several people in this thread have tossed out 1/4 though).
Of course, some adjustments will be needed based on the "quirks" of a post.
Like defensive focused posts will need a different durability target and a far lesser damage target (passive, spire shield, command station shield)
For example, those with non-standard roles need special attention to suit what their role is supposed to be (stealth, anti-starship arachnid, counter-attack, special forces).



EDIT: Yea, I didn't have much to say on this.

[Winge]

If the Anti-starship arachnid post, if they do get a chunky damage buff, they should get the "can only target large things" flag.

Other than that, yea, a similar level of firepower to a cap of the Mk. N fleet ships they are "modeled" after but with a fraction of the cap durability seems about right. (What fraction, I don't know. Several people in this thread have tossed out 1/4 though).
Of course, some adjustments will be needed based on the "quirks" of a post.
Like defensive focused posts will need a different durability target and a far lesser damage target (passive, spire shield, command station shield)
For example, those with non-standard roles need special attention to suit what their role is supposed to be (stealth, anti-starship arachnid, counter-attack, special forces).



EDIT: Yea, I didn't have much to say on this.

I believe the Arachnid posts already have the "only target large things" flag.  The main problem with those is their reload time is astronomical, lowering the DPS of the laser it fires.

I agree about the firepower balancing, but I don't necessarily want them to exactly mimic turret bonuses.  Some variety on the guard posts would be neat, imo.

...I guess I don't have much to say either

[Vacuity]

I don't have anything to add that Diazo didn't already explain.  I did vote for the buff, but the buff being described seems a bit more than what I was envisaging.  Mk III or IV worlds with eyes shouldn't become near-impossible or a terrible grind.

Still, happy to see that things get done so quickly!

[Kahuna]

Raid Starships didn't deserve this nerf.