Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions

[Winge]

Something fishy may be going on here, if the main base of the enemy gets some extra "reinforcements" as the enemy minor bases go down, but the same does not happen if the allied main base doesn't get a similar boost when the allied minor bases go down. Can any confirm if this logic is working or is broken for allies? From what Keith said, this sort of "make the main base work more as minor bases are lost" logic is supposed to apply to any side of the fight.

Doing a careful observation of my game, I saw there that with the allied big starbase having one smaller one left, it would deploy 9 craft at a time, while the enemy SB would deploy 11 at a time about between 50 - 75% faster give or take. It is a total mess, toward the end the enemy SB deployed 3 waves before the allied one did one wave.

So, the logic seems to be working for both sides, but for allies, the the strength of this logic seems to be an order of magnitude below what the enemy gets. Is that right?

Yea, that sounds fishy. 11/9 seems to be a reasonable ratio (given that usually, the allies themselves admit to being outgunned, but barely, thus the champ can swing the battle in their favor, giving the champ player a purpose). A 33/9 ratio does not sound reasonable. 

Yes, it is definitely not reasonable.  I was doing the 2v2 for the first time today.  The only way I could beat it was near-suicide against the Dark Spire to drop their main starbase as quickly as possible.  Even then, when the enemy had half the number of starbases they would get at least 2 times as many ships as my allies.  This is not my week for nebulas, it seems 

Edit:
I finally got the 3 way battle, after getting 2 IMT scenarios early (those hurt  ).  Easy win, I figured.  Rather than waste time, I decided to basically alpha the Dark Spire starbases.  In doing so, I apparently created an...imbalance in the number of forces in the nebula.



I managed to win by extensive kiting, a few shields (although the Hatred class has the Plasma Siege Starship's "shield splash" effect ).  I did not notice the same effect with the Neinzul Astrids.  I decided to run partway through the scenario, killing all of the small Dark Spire Starbases.  I didn't get quite the same effect, but I did still notice an imbalance.  At any given time, the Dark Spire had more heavy ships (Hatred class) than both of the other factions combines (Monolith and Nova classes).  I will probably toy with this scenario one or two more times tomorrow and see what other results I can create.  Right now, it feels like the 'balancing factor' for either Dark Spire or a losing AI is way off.  Granted, that's very little testing on my part, and I have a rather strong ship for that particular scenario (I've beaten that scenario with only the Frigate; I had a cruiser with all Mark IV heavy modules and Mark III light modules).  For all I know, I could have tripped some type of "spawn at hp" trigger hitting the Dark Spire so quickly...

This is definitely not my week for nebulas.

Edit Mark II:
Looks like I'm not the only one who is getting hammered by this effect.  Noticed a post from Chemical_Art 2 pages ago that sounds like the same phenomenon.  When I do testing tomorrow, I'll post a few saves as well.

[Cinth]

I'm going out on a limb and saying the "max hull size unlocked" scale factor might be a tad bit tight. I don't think it is the # of wins part since that has been in for while now (15% per win) and I don't remember seeing this many folks with problems.

[Histidine]

I'm going out on a limb and saying the "max hull size unlocked" scale factor might be a tad bit tight. I don't think it is the # of wins part since that has been in for while now (15% per win) and I don't remember seeing this many folks with problems.

Yeah, this is my experience as well; BB scenarios in particular make you do everything yourself. At least you have the firepower to circle around the back and punch out the big starbases so the uber-spawns stop (good luck doing this on the 5v4 brawl though).

IMO scenarios should ramp up in scale with larger hulls (so you're still a small but vital part of the picture, rather than the allied spawns being just distractions while you charge down the enemy's throat), but not so much in terms of difficulty. To be sure, the fact that starbase stats and small starbase spawns are fixed might make implementing this elegantly a bit hard.

[Cinth]

BB scenarios in particular

Everything after you get Battleship hulls are repeats. There aren't any scenarios specifically for the BB yet (if at all). Scenarios 10-15 should be hard. It is all extra goodies at that point. 1-9 (first go round with each scenario) should be challenging and feel rewarding when you beat them. The feeling I'm getting from the recent posts are that folks are bashing heads against the wall... I think the scenarios mention can be toned down a little and not kill the challenge in them and keep the feel they have.

[Winge]

Well, I decided to run a few tests.  I've attached saves for the 2 ship types I used for these tests.

Tests 1-4 used a Human Shadow Cruiser (first save)
Test 5 used a Spire Shadow Cruiser (second save)

For all tests, I focused almost entirely on the Starbases, frequently without ally support.  Allies occasionally killed other starbases without my help on occasion.  I recorded 'significant events' (starbase destruction, large starbase HP @ 50%, complete elimination of an enemy, retreat for shield recharging, etc.).  For each event, I noted the game time stamp and each type of ship (allied and enemy, heavy, medium, and light).  The results are in the attached Excel 2003 document.  Each test represents a different kill order or champion type.

Test 1 and 5 order:  Small Dark Spire (DS) > Large DS > Small Neinzul Astrid (NA) > Large NA
Test 2 order:  Large DS > Small DS > Large NA > Small NA
Test 3 order:  Small NA > Large NA > Small DS > Large DS (I really, REALLY do not recommend that path right now )
Test 4 order:  Large NA > Small NA > Large DS > Small DS

I never managed to repeat my 46 Dark Spire Hatred swarm from last night; the highest I got this evening is 24 Hatreds.  That said, I noted 2 things from these tests.
1.  The spawn rate for the Dark Spire Large Starbase seems way high compared to the others.  The only test I saw more Novas than Hatreds was test 2, where I struck the Large DS Starbase first.
2.  Large ships (especially the Hatred) love chasing after the Bomber Drones (bonus against Polycrystal).  Is that a bad thing?  I don't know, but I decided I needed a control test--hence, test 5 with the Spire Cruiser.  It appears that was part of my problem--I saw 15 Hatreds max instead of 24.  That is still around 50% more than the maximum number of either Novas or Monoliths.

Obviously these tests aren't perfect, but almost all of them seem to show that the Dark Spire's Hatred spawn rate in the FFA scenario are much higher than they should be.  Also, on a completely unrelated note, can we please get different icons for the Dark Spire Vengeance and Shadowblade ships?



PS:
Is it really a game if you're building a spreadsheet while playing? 

[Hearteater]

Is it really a game if you're building a spreadsheet while playing? 

That's when the game really begins.

[chemical_art]

I remember a while back shard recovery waves were increased by 4x but shard speed was increased by 4.

What I wonder is that does the 2 stage of FS, where you do the frigate recovery, if that also uses the same enemy response mechanic.

Because if so, that stage is now 4x harder then it was. I just tried it in my game and my poor frigate got pounded by 2 warbirds to death as the rest of my fleet got washed away.

If this is true, it could be remedied by having the special spire frigate having an extra 4x health, and is removed when it builds its spire building to advance the story line.

[keith.lamothe]

What I wonder is that does the 2 stage of FS, where you do the frigate recovery, if that also uses the same enemy response mechanic.

Because if so, that stage is now 4x harder then it was. I just tried it in my game and my poor frigate got pounded by 2 warbirds to death as the rest of my fleet got washed away.

If this is true, it could be remedied by having the special spire frigate having an extra 4x health, and is removed when it builds its spire building to advance the story line.

I didn't actually change either the spawn rate of that chase exo or the speed of the frigate.  Just the shard ones.

[chemical_art]

Ok, was just curious.

I guess I'll use my champion as another dedicated shield bear for that poor frigate.

I guess the RNG just said "GG" when it gave two warbirds on the first spawn. I <3 them too much to be mad at them though.

EDIT 1: It was indeed RNG. I redid it and there were no warbirds, frigate had 75% health this time when it returned.

[chemical_art]

On my 4th nebula I couldn't avoid doing the 1 v 1 starbase slug described earlier.

I tried doing suicide runs on the main SB.

Eventually the same result happened. I had 40 enemy craft compared to my 12 allies as my allied starbases fell rapidly. I got the big enemy SB down to about 10% before all my allied SB fell.

It's annoying.Even when my allied SB is losing its starbases and the enemy does not the enemy wins so decisively that I cannot stop it. But when the result happens to the enemy, he can blitz to beat me back. I still had my destroyer so I wasn't in BB range where I could curb stomp the enemy SB.

[rabican]

On my 4th nebula I couldn't avoid doing the 1 v 1 starbase slug described earlier.

I tried doing suicide runs on the main SB.

Eventually the same result happened. I had 40 enemy craft compared to my 12 allies as my allied starbases fell rapidly. I got the big enemy SB down to about 10% before all my allied SB fell.

It's annoying.Even when my allied SB is losing its starbases and the enemy does not the enemy wins so decisively that I cannot stop it. But when the result happens to the enemy, he can blitz to beat me back. I still had my destroyer so I wasn't in BB range where I could curb stomp the enemy SB.

Which nebulae? They don't have set order.

From my experience(i've done them whole chain 5+ times) all of them apart from the colony ship and maybe rare case of 2vs2 one should  always be doable, with nearly any loadout. I'm assuming this is on of the epsilon missions, either 1v1v1 or the first one vs thugs? In both cases you should have victory by just escorting your bombers. Trying to kill everything might mess things up a bit, as your avalanches tend to suicide if they dont have anything to shoot at. And unless you have enough of them, that is bad.

Before BB that is, after that gets it gets messed up. Only way to win any scenario is snipe the big one , and some of those (3vs2, colony) is probably impossible.

[Winge]

On my 4th nebula I couldn't avoid doing the 1 v 1 starbase slug described earlier.

I tried doing suicide runs on the main SB.

Eventually the same result happened. I had 40 enemy craft compared to my 12 allies as my allied starbases fell rapidly. I got the big enemy SB down to about 10% before all my allied SB fell.

It's annoying.Even when my allied SB is losing its starbases and the enemy does not the enemy wins so decisively that I cannot stop it. But when the result happens to the enemy, he can blitz to beat me back. I still had my destroyer so I wasn't in BB range where I could curb stomp the enemy SB.

I'm running into that situation on the 3 v 2 nebula.  I understand that our allies are supposed to be outnumbered, but that is riddiculous.  I cannot even kill one Small Starbase before I lose 2 Small Starbases.  And forget about the larges; any real attempt to kill them causes me to lose my shadow ship and all of my allies except the Shattered Pillar.  Is there a method to log Nebula Spawns?  Something has seemed way off for the last 3 nebulas, at least.

[Histidine]

Now that shards only count hops from homeworld for spawning, I think it'd be fine if they were seeded a bit further out. I kind of miss planning expeditions deep into AI space to retrieve them.

[chemical_art]

Which nebulae? They don't have set order.

From my experience(i've done them whole chain 5+ times) all of them apart from the colony ship and maybe rare case of 2vs2 one should  always be doable, with nearly any loadout. I'm assuming this is on of the epsilon missions, either 1v1v1 or the first one vs thugs? In both cases you should have victory by just escorting your bombers. Trying to kill everything might mess things up a bit, as your avalanches tend to suicide if they dont have anything to shoot at. And unless you have enough of them, that is bad.

Before BB that is, after that gets it gets messed up. Only way to win any scenario is snipe the big one , and some of those (3vs2, colony) is probably impossible.

It was the 1 v 1 one. Perhaps I should recap my history of it.

I had done what you had done the first attempt. I escorted the bombers. I won pretty decisively as I slogged to destroy all but the largest starbase while losing 1 of my own smaller ones. At that point though, the enemy was pumping out ships more then 3 times as fast and my destroyer couldn't them fast enough so a very aggravating counter blitz occurred and I lost.

The above was me following someone else's advice and trying to attack the big SB first, not last, and it also had the same result. The enemy had 40 craft on the field despite the antisnowball logic working on both sides.



For me, it just demonstrates the snowball logic really doesn't accomplish its goals on the 1 v 1 nebula. If the allied SB starts losing, the anti snowball logic does not counter enough to make a difference . If the enemy starts losing, it can counter enough to make what make a player victory a defeat. In both my situations, the enemy had 5 waves on the field when my last SB fell. I think I know why, its because the enemy nebula coefficent for nebula progression even by the player's third nebula (this is the third nebula you visit, meaning you accomplished two...I don't see this "nebula scenario X is nebula Y page anywhere, so that's what I always mean when I say nebula #) is much greater then the snowball logic, meaning it only really helps the ai.

Or, more specifically, it widenes the gap between allied and enemy spawns at the endgame of the nebula, and since nebula difficulty is tied to the gap in spawns, it serves to make the end game of a nebula harder.

I do have a question: Has anyone taken a game where in the 1 v 1 both human nebula, with the same champion loadout throughout, and you lost 3 or 4 smaller SB's while the enemy lost half that despite your best efforts of protecting your spawns, but came out to win anyway because you had a greated allied spawn rate?

My guess is the above question has the affirmative very rarely, because if you can't win at the beginning of the nebula match, were the gap between allies and enemy is smallest and thus easiest, then you certainly can't win at the end game where the gap is widest and the game is hardest.

Keep in mind these observations are limited singly to the nebula where you have the 2 human factions in a 1 v 1 brawl. In the other nebulas other things are going on so this logic isn't so clear cut.

[chemical_art]

What is the goal lvl when you unlock the largest hull?

I had a lvl 29, which enabled me to get one module a lvl V, two modules to lvl IV, and a sprinkling of modules to lvl II.

For me it feels like after the DD I can never take full advantage of my modules for points are so tight. For example my above info I didn't get any module above II till I got the battleship, and with my frugality was I still unable to get three modules to V.