Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions

[Vitka]

Maybe rather flat 20% increase, percentage should be proportional to levels of all champions, with appropriate floor/ceiling?

[KDR_11k]

That will make people try to minimize the number of levels they gain.

[Toranth]

Maybe rather flat 20% increase, percentage should be proportional to levels of all champions, with appropriate floor/ceiling?

That will make people try to minimize the number of levels they gain.

Also, unfortunately, each level does not necessarily make the Champion stronger.
Upgrading ship size, and upgrading modules does... but what good does that Mk IV Laser module do you when you are running a Neinzul ship with all Insanity Inducers?

After lots of games with Champions, I am completely convinced that the 20% flat increase in AI strength is not right.  Unfortunately, Champion strength is disjoint based on unlocks and levels.  Balancing something like that is going to be difficult.

[Faulty Logic]

The .2 HW mechanic is supposed to have champion power scale as you get more AIP, maintaining a rough equilibrium. In practice, the champion is consistently overpowered or underpowered, depending on the presence of exos, and how players treat AIP (champions are heavily in favor of ultra-low AIP as they stand).

 I would like it to have no effect (or a constant firepower boost) on exo-waves, but a heavy modifier of base-game stuff (like counting as a third or half a homeworld) comes to mind.

Alternatively, have the champion count as a third source of normal waves.

I don't like the idea of punishing experience or levels in any way; if you manage to get your champion to the relevant nebulae with sufficient health to win (clearing paths, dealing with threat, having championless time to defend against champion-boosted waves, etc.) then you should be rewarded.

[Kjara]

I was playing around with champs in a 7.6 game, and I basically soloed both homeworlds with one cruiser.  It took a few runs, but a Zenith cruiser with 2x Interceptor bays and 4x bomber bays or 6x bomber bays (for the double shield + fortress by the command center) + microing the shield projector (with full shadow energy this is basically another 100k hp for your champ, plus it helps you keep the drones alive to increase their dps as well) let me take out 1-2 posts per run.  Once I cleared out all of the posts it then took about 3-4 runs for the bomber drones to finish the two shields and the fortress.  The entire fleet ball stayed on home on the defense to handle the counter attacks this spawned and the two of the free modular fortresses covered my home command center.  Ended up taking 3 planets (3 of the 4 adjacent planets to the homeworld) -- mostly for energy even though the mission energy and income rewards helped with this a huge amount.

This was clearly a ultra low AIP game, as I killed the 2nd ai homeworld at around 60 aip, but being able to suicide the champion repeatedly let me keep the AIP low without having to spend any resources (that I didn't have due to not taking many planets).  I think that the champ increasing in power needs to increase AI response in some fashion, not clear what the best choice is here though. 

How about increasing the AIP floor for completing champ missions or for leveling the champion to encourage you to take more planets? 

[LaughingThesaurus]

Don't punish success.
At least, don't punish leveling. It'd make sense if the AI picked up on champion ship operations and tech rewards and stuff, because unlocking things with knowledge already costs AI Progress. But, leveling should definitely not be punished. All that will do is discourage general use of the champion.
If there is some kind of AIP Floor increase, it should be no more than 5 points per nebula victory

[KDR_11k]

If you want to be crazy add shadow wormhole seals to some AI systems with shadow wormholes. These would prevent using the wormhole until destroyed and cost AIP to break. Maybe the three closest nebulas shouldn't have them while the rest does so you can get a bit of a tech baseline before the AIP increases. The inspiration for this idea was an AI system over a nebula that had a black hole machine (I opted to conquer the system instead as it also contained a cursed golem).

[Vitka]

Don't punish success.
At least, don't punish leveling. It'd make sense if the AI picked up on champion ship operations and tech rewards and stuff, because unlocking things with knowledge already costs AI Progress. But, leveling should definitely not be punished. All that will do is discourage general use of the champion.
If there is some kind of AIP Floor increase, it should be no more than 5 points per nebula victory

I concede my point. Unlock-dependent increase is better than level-dependent.

[keith.lamothe]

I'm thinking that making it primarily dependent on the champion-hull-size unlocked would be best, as well as tying the actual scaling of the nebulae to that primarily, instead of number of nebula wins.

I've hesitated doing this because it's potentially tough to make sure the AI thread is up to date on what hulls are available, but we'll see.

On the issue of exo-buffs vs wave/reinforcement/etc-buffs, yea, I think it could use a separate modifier for that purpose.  But I've also gotten complaints that the champion isn't worth the 20% increase in waves and cpa's, so it's a bit tricky to figure out exactly what's going on.  I think partly it's a question of actually exploiting the champion fully, and that it may be good to make it a little more generous with the module unlock rewards.

[Diazo]

As I think I'm one of the loudest voices who are saying that the Champion is not worth a flat 20% bonus, I want to clarify as that is not quite what I am saying.

(I've said all this before in other places, but combining into a recap never hurts.)

There are two things that are impacting why I don't think the current AI bonus works.


• Champion Hull Sizes
When a Champion goes up a hull size it is a giant jump in the Champions combat power relative to itself. I have not seen the 5th and largest hull size yet but it is going to be in the 500-600% more powerful then the small frigate hull you start with. And then there is the question of what the Champion hull sizes are worth in absolute combat terms in the galaxy at large and I really am not sure where to start on comparisons for that.

This point boils down to asking why does the AI get the same bonus regardless of the hull size your champion is?


• Percent scaling is not linear
By this, I mean the fact that it is multiplicative with the AI's bonus so as wave sizes get larger, either due to AIP or difficulty, a flat 20% bonus becomes relatively more powerful in combat terms as the 'base pool' becomes larger. 100 ships growing to 120 ships is not a big deal, 1000 ships growing to 1200 ships is a lot bigger worry.

After a certain point, the bonus is granting the AI so many extra ships that the Champion is not worth it, there are simply so many bonus ships that the Champion does not matter.

So, ya. I don't like the flat 20% bonus. However, I have not played around with the champion enough to suggest a change, although I think it would have to scale with the champion somehow.

D.

[/list]

[LordSloth]

Some brainstormed ideas about champions (warning, quality of suggestion may be pitiful).

Mario: Champion starts with one extra life. Gains one extra life for each system 'liberated' from the AI (command station killed). If there are no lives remaining, it spawns as champion core back at the homeworld. The Champion maintains much of its immortality, but punishes recklessness by encouraging the player to take more and more territory, advancing their doom. Ideally, Homeworld raiding would be less desirable.

Warp Pipe: Remove the ability to scrap champions. Add a 'teleport' ability that immobilizes the champion (cancelling shields, cloak), drains half of current shadow charge, then rapidly charges to 1000, respawning (without removing life counter) the champion at the homeworld once it hits full.

Rename Zenith (flamewave) ship to Fireflower hull.

Champion Controller: cribbing from a command station core, the controller spawns at the start of the game around an allied homeworld. This unit is only available to champion players, and comes with a dedicated repair/engineer beam for building modules without the support of allies. The beginning of a co-op game is often a balance between wanting to avoid building every allies power stations and 5-10 labs, and allies asking for some engineer love.

Short: Remove the abbreviation field from the champion modular window. I can't spot the abbreviation anywhere else.

Champion Mark: The saved designs for champions only remember type and placement of module. In other words, you only place Laser Modules, not Laser Modules MKI, MKII, MKIII, MKIV.  If you

[TechSY730]

Champion Mark: The saved designs for champions only remember type and placement of module. In other words, you only place Laser Modules, not Laser Modules MKI, MKII, MKIII, MKIV.

Yes, PLEASE do this!

I am assuming that under this system, champions will auto-pick the highest mark available (given both unlock and hull restrictions)?

EDIT: I am also assuming that to get the champion to "refresh" its modules with the latest marks, you can just reapply the ship template?

[Eternaly_Lost]

I'm thinking that making it primarily dependent on the champion-hull-size unlocked would be best, as well as tying the actual scaling of the nebulae to that primarily, instead of number of nebula wins.

I've hesitated doing this because it's potentially tough to make sure the AI thread is up to date on what hulls are available, but we'll see.

On the issue of exo-buffs vs wave/reinforcement/etc-buffs, yea, I think it could use a separate modifier for that purpose.  But I've also gotten complaints that the champion isn't worth the 20% increase in waves and cpa's, so it's a bit tricky to figure out exactly what's going on.  I think partly it's a question of actually exploiting the champion fully, and that it may be good to make it a little more generous with the module unlock rewards.

I think the Champion needs to scale upwards in power with # of homeworlds, as I rarely find that my Champion can do that much outside of nebulas once I really start to get anywhere in my games. My weak exo-waves that come in with only one or two HK just make them disappear so quickly that I don't even bother use them outside of nebula. I just sit them outside the next one and wait until I have time to kill (A shard is flying across the galaxy) then send it in to play to kill time.

On the other side of thing, it is an extremely great way to kill time well you are waiting for Fallen Spire stuff (fleets to be built, shards to fly in) happens.

Champion Mark: The saved designs for champions only remember type and placement of module. In other words, you only place Laser Modules, not Laser Modules MKI, MKII, MKIII, MKIV.

Yes, PLEASE do this!

I am assuming that under this system, champions will auto-pick the highest mark available (given both unlock and hull restrictions)?

EDIT: I am also assuming that to get the champion to "refresh" its modules with the latest marks, you can just reapply the ship template?

I too would much rather see the Champion both autopick and autoupgrade it modules to the highest level on respawn. I dislike unlocking higher levels until I get a new hull because I have to go in and replace everything and with so much to unlock I can't just make a ton of presets for every mk combination.

[Cyborg]

I have had so much trouble getting into this champion stuff.

[Diazo]

A question on the new Heroic AI type.

How does it value Champions for wave sizes?

Are they a flat bonus? I have one Heroic and one non-Heroic AI in my current game and I do not see any way size between the two so I'm wondering.

D.

edit: Not really Ancient Shadows related, but all guardians seem to be immune to translocation from a military command station even though their immunities list does not show it? Can someone confirm please.