Author Topic: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions  (Read 116450 times)

Offline Cinth

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #255 on: September 07, 2012, 11:50:15 am »
I doing 16 HW 10/10 8 champ Fallen Spire run. Working at getting the 4th shard, so 3 city hubs up and running. My AIP is around 175 after I've hit all the redux possible. The last Exo that came my way was 1150 ships there about with waves coming in at around 10k per double. It is getting brutal to make progress. I've 42 hours invested and 22 since I started doing the FS stuff.
I think my last CPA was in the 35k region (AI didn't have 35k ships to send)

My champs do well supporting my defense and offense.

I don't think the next hull will have over twice the firepower to make up the extra 200% increase there.
Just curious - see if you can time the increase rate on one of the timed Exowaves.  I'd like to know if the huge charge-rate I'm seeing is something peculiar to my settings.
 
42:18:01 85%
42:28:01 The Pain Train has left the station
« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 12:00:09 pm by Cinth »
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Diazo

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #256 on: September 07, 2012, 11:53:34 am »
From my experience, I'd say that's backwards.  At the beginning of the game, when the AI hasn't reinforced much and AIP is low enough that waves are still small, the Champion basically has free run of every system outside of Deepstrike.  As the game goes on, however, the Champions get more powerful.  But the AI also gets more powerful, and the percentage increase to the AI results in a much higher absolute increase in power.  At that point, the usefulness of the Champion begins to shrink rapidly.

Champions are probably at their most powerful right after your first or second Nebula (if you rush right to the scenarios), because they unlocked some stuff and gotten some XP for upgrades, but the AI hasn't gotten going yet.

Now I'm wanting to suggest a different calculation for the AIs bonus for each number of champion.

Actually, does the champion bonus apply to the inital game seed? If not, we are simply going to have to accept in the early game that 8 champs provide more benifit then 1 champ.

Hmm, what about for the AI bonus something like (numbers need tweaking but for the sake of my point):

Initial bonus = (# of champions) * 2.
Bonus per nebula complete = (10 - # of champions) / 2

That way the more champions you have the higher the AIs inital bonus, but it ramps up slower to compensate.

D.

Offline Cinth

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #257 on: September 07, 2012, 12:09:29 pm »
Now I'm wanting to suggest a different calculation for the AIs bonus for each number of champion.

Actually, does the champion bonus apply to the inital game seed? If not, we are simply going to have to accept in the early game that 8 champs provide more benifit then 1 champ.

Hmm, what about for the AI bonus something like (numbers need tweaking but for the sake of my point):

Initial bonus = (# of champions) * 2.
Bonus per nebula complete = (10 - # of champions) / 2

That way the more champions you have the higher the AIs inital bonus, but it ramps up slower to compensate.

D.
I get what you were saying D.

I can offer you my play experience in the very early game (10/10 mind you) with 8 Human Destroyers. From level 1 to level 5 (enough to get shields, lasers and missiles to Mk II) I hit AI systems. Mind you shields and missiles make it a bit easier but, it usually goes about like this.

Enter system. Haul butt to the outskirts and start picking off the horde of now angry ships (often times you will wake the entire planet on entry). Fall back and repair and/or replace champs and head back in. After clearing the initial allotment of ships, hit guard posts, and pretty much anything else I can clean up before I have to retreat again. Each system I clear, I have to visit at least twice. How well I can clear post Destroyer is determined by unlocks really.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #258 on: September 07, 2012, 12:26:13 pm »
From my experience, I'd say that's backwards.  At the beginning of the game, when the AI hasn't reinforced much and AIP is low enough that waves are still small, the Champion basically has free run of every system outside of Deepstrike.  As the game goes on, however, the Champions get more powerful.  But the AI also gets more powerful, and the percentage increase to the AI results in a much higher absolute increase in power.  At that point, the usefulness of the Champion begins to shrink rapidly.

Champions are probably at their most powerful right after your first or second Nebula (if you rush right to the scenarios), because they unlocked some stuff and gotten some XP for upgrades, but the AI hasn't gotten going yet.

Now I'm wanting to suggest a different calculation for the AIs bonus for each number of champion.

Actually, does the champion bonus apply to the inital game seed? If not, we are simply going to have to accept in the early game that 8 champs provide more benifit then 1 champ.

Hmm, what about for the AI bonus something like (numbers need tweaking but for the sake of my point):

Initial bonus = (# of champions) * 2.
Bonus per nebula complete = (10 - # of champions) / 2

That way the more champions you have the higher the AIs inital bonus, but it ramps up slower to compensate.

D.
I like the idea of the Champions affecting the intial seed.
I also like the idea of the AI strength bonus ramping up as the Champions get stronger/complete nebula scenarios (successfully).  That reflects that the Champions are getting stronger, and that the player is gaining more of the allied ships from nebulas. 

However, your suggested rate seems a little mean.  From what I understand, here's what the rate would be.
1 Champion
Inital bonus:  2%
Per nebula bonus:  4.5%
Final (15 nebula):  69.5%

8 Champions
Initial bonus:  16%
Per nebula bonus:  1%
Final (15 nebula):  31%

Not sure what a good rate would be.  This seems like a topic for lots of discussion.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #259 on: September 07, 2012, 01:02:40 pm »
How about making nebulas cause AIP? That's more transparent than some magic multiplier. Though with the random rewards of the nebulas you may end up with a nebula giving you a terrible reward (e.g. the Neinzul have given me an insanity inducer but no ship to use it on while the Spire have given me their ship but I have nothing except shields to fit into the large slots which makes the thing more like a flying paperweight) and people could get scared of going for nebulas if they don't think the reward could compare to the AI strength increase.

Though maybe one of the issues is that any percentage bonus will affect higher difficulties more than lower ones while the champion does not scale to the difficulty in the slightest.

Perhaps the AI should just get one respawning champion unit per human champion (and no other benefits) even if it's not the Heroic type. Hell, it could even be set up to mess with nebula scenarios under certain circumstances.

Offline orzelek

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #260 on: September 08, 2012, 04:35:34 am »
I'm not sure that champion modifier needs to be harsher.

As it is now it could use some reverse logic to add more reinforcement points for planets when you have large champion with low AIP - you simply overpowered AI by doing many nebulas but not getting more AIP.

Even now champion usefulness is highly dependent on what AI's you roll with and bonus ship composition. Vs Bully and Spire Hammer you can cruise AI planets easily, versus more standard AI's it can hurt a bit and turtles will stop you a bit better. Fortress baron will make you die quickly since champion vs fort is quite difficult at start and requires using tons of shadow fields later.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #261 on: September 08, 2012, 06:16:42 am »
Anyone else constantly using the human ships? The main gun is quite powerful and comes with a range of high multipliers and the many small slots seem to be more effective damage output than large slots (at least in my game, I only have the basic shields and missiles and a fighter drone module for the large slots).

Offline Toranth

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #262 on: September 08, 2012, 07:37:28 am »
Anyone else constantly using the human ships? The main gun is quite powerful and comes with a range of high multipliers and the many small slots seem to be more effective damage output than large slots (at least in my game, I only have the basic shields and missiles and a fighter drone module for the large slots).
Each ship has some specialized modules that make them worthwhile.
A Neinzul Cruiser with 6 Mk IV Insanity Inducers and 4 Mk IV Bomber Bays is a force of terror when raiding the AI.  In addition, Neinzul get the Repair Field and Decoy abilities.
A Spire Cruiser with 5 Photon Lances and 2 Shields is both tough and extremely deadly.
The Zenith Cruiser can get 2 Shields and 4 Heat Beams - devestating against waves and mobs of AI fleetships.
The Human Cruiser, on the other hand, has 16 small weapons bays.  I like to fill these up with Nano Subverters or Doom Accelerators and go to town.  For small modules with special features, the Humans truly shine.  Humans also get the Attack Booster ability.

I find myself flipping between the ship types based on mission.  It makes it very hard to decide which modules to spend XP on, though.

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #263 on: September 08, 2012, 09:11:29 pm »
I use the human ships almost exclusively. A human cruiser with 4 shield modules and 16 small modules (I usually just stick to the basic ones) carves through most enemy fleets. I switch to a spire cruiser to wear down forcefields or take structures down quickly, or a neinzul to repair my fleet for free after a huge battle, but those are rare cases.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #264 on: September 08, 2012, 10:10:40 pm »
I'm not in favor of a pure % aip game, because the power of the champion is constant (in that it raises at a pretty standard rate) while aip fluctuates so much in games.

With aip floor riding game 20% is barely noticable, but in a game with exo waves or a fallen spire games 20% is lethal.


The relative impact of champions is also inversely proportion to aip. aip is often the result of the human player getting more powerful. To illustrate.

The power of the champion when the player is at 10 aip (one planet) is exponentially more powerful relatively then a player at 220 aip (10 player worlds + other aip games). But wait, you can reasonably say, champions get upgrades! This brings up the next point.

Further compounding the issue is that with various tactics the champion can increase in power without increasing aip. So map placement is very important. Some maps may with clever planet hopping allow the player in a 80 planet game to get cruisers with only 4 or 6 planets taken by the player. To balance this, the current model of having nebulas tied to planet count is done, but that results in players not getting the full AS experience. Yet the alternative of always having 8 nebulas regardless of planet count results in the player being able to get cruisers without taking a single world which is its own problems. I already can imagine games where players on a 10 planet game assaulting ai homeworlds with cruisers and wearing them down.

So with these points, I am not in favor of a pure % in aip due to the massive fluctuations of map types, number of planets, play styles resulting in so many varying ai responses. Fallen spire causes a drastic change to the game, but it causes the same responses on its campaign no matter what map type, number of planets, or play style, because its difficulty is not tied to aip but rather ai difficulty numbers.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 10:14:40 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #265 on: September 09, 2012, 04:02:08 am »
Anyone else constantly using the human ships? The main gun is quite powerful and comes with a range of high multipliers and the many small slots seem to be more effective damage output than large slots (at least in my game, I only have the basic shields and missiles and a fighter drone module for the large slots).
Each ship has some specialized modules that make them worthwhile.
A Neinzul Cruiser with 6 Mk IV Insanity Inducers and 4 Mk IV Bomber Bays is a force of terror when raiding the AI.  In addition, Neinzul get the Repair Field and Decoy abilities.
A Spire Cruiser with 5 Photon Lances and 2 Shields is both tough and extremely deadly.
The Zenith Cruiser can get 2 Shields and 4 Heat Beams - devestating against waves and mobs of AI fleetships.
The Human Cruiser, on the other hand, has 16 small weapons bays.  I like to fill these up with Nano Subverters or Doom Accelerators and go to town.  For small modules with special features, the Humans truly shine.  Humans also get the Attack Booster ability.

I find myself flipping between the ship types based on mission.  It makes it very hard to decide which modules to spend XP on, though.

Well, most of those modules require luck to unlock (of the listed ones I only have the photon lance and insanity inducer but I don't have a neinzul hull). Since my champion fights fleet ships 90% of the time I get very little use out of those beam weapons. The rail clusters work but I'm not convinced they're as goodas a human champ's arsenal.

Offline Vihermaali

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #266 on: September 09, 2012, 06:25:25 am »
I bought the ancient shadows pack, got key, I have normal + champion role, yet there is nothing in the blue wormholes. Just  a big empty area, and I have explored at least 6 different blue wormholes. All empty. My first thought was "maybe its just not implemented yet", but then I saw this thread and people talking about them.

I have no idea how to get different shadow frigate types, apparently there are others, but if the blue wormholes are not working, there is very little I can say about the new expansion.

Am I doing something wrong? I got the setup .exe for ancient shadows and installed it into my steam ai war directory.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 06:35:36 am by Vihermaali »

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #267 on: September 09, 2012, 06:38:17 am »
By "explore" do you mean "sent the champion in" ? The nebulae are intentionally blank until that happens.

If it is still a problem, try disabling the Dark Spire minor faction, as it can apparently cause this to happen.

Of course, updating to the latest version is a good idea.

If none of those work (or none are applicable), post a save, and the developers will be around eventually. As a standard player, I can try to find out what is wrong from a save, but can't guarantee any solutions.
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Offline Vihermaali

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #268 on: September 09, 2012, 06:42:29 am »
By "explore" do you mean "sent the champion in" ? The nebulae are intentionally blank until that happens.

If it is still a problem, try disabling the Dark Spire minor faction, as it can apparently cause this to happen.

Of course, updating to the latest version is a good idea.

If none of those work (or none are applicable), post a save, and the developers will be around eventually. As a standard player, I can try to find out what is wrong from a save, but can't guarantee any solutions.

THANK YOU!

Yes, I had the dark spire enabled in all of my games this far. I started a new game, disabled dark spire, and there was life in a nebulae when my champion went in. It seems like that's a serious bug.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 06:44:35 am by Vihermaali »

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #269 on: September 09, 2012, 06:43:43 am »
Happy to help. It is a bug, but the developers already know about it, so it should be fixed soon. Good luck in your war against the AI.
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