Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions

[Diazo]

Alright, having played a game with the Champion and heard other players feedback, I think the bonus the AI gets need to be relative to the number of nebulas completed.

My reasons for this are that the flat 20% bonus is one of the reason I lost my last game.

Because I got pinned and was scrambling to stay alive I was only able to complete 3 nebula scenarios and so never got larger then the destroyer hull.

Compared to people talking about their champion soloing high mark systems (or even a homeworld), mine was lucky to survive raiding a guardpost in a Mk III system.

So I was eating these waves that were 20% bigger when my champion really was not worth 20% in the slightest.

So maybe the AI starts with a 3% bonues, that goes up by 3% for every nebula completed? That would give it the 20% bonus after the 6th nebula which means you should have the cruiser hull and is when the champion really starts to shine.

Keeping in mind that I played this game on 10/10, here are the numbers that prompted me to post this suggestion:

Last CPA of the game: 10,000 units, so 8,000 units base + 2,000 units from the Champion bonus.
Last wave of the game: 5,200 units, so 4,300 units base + 900 units from the Champion bonus.

My champion on a destroyer hull was simply not that powerful, not even close. Now, it was 10/10 so I expect punishing, but even the bonus part normal wave at 900 units would simply blow past my champion in a single salvo, I expect my champion to at least slow down the bonus ships the AI is getting due to it's presence.

D.

[TechSY730]

Alright, having played a game with the Champion and heard other players feedback, I think the bonus the AI gets need to be relative to the number of nebulas completed.

My reasons for this are that the flat 20% bonus is one of the reason I lost my last game.

Because I got pinned and was scrambling to stay alive I was only able to complete 3 nebula scenarios and so never got larger then the destroyer hull.

Compared to people talking about their champion soloing high mark systems (or even a homeworld), mine was lucky to survive raiding a guardpost in a Mk III system.

So I was eating these waves that were 20% bigger when my champion really was not worth 20% in the slightest.

So maybe the AI starts with a 3% bonues, that goes up by 3% for every nebula completed? That would give it the 20% bonus after the 6th nebula which means you should have the cruiser hull and is when the champion really starts to shine.

Keeping in mind that I played this game on 10/10, here are the numbers that prompted me to post this suggestion:

Last CPA of the game: 10,000 units, so 8,000 units base + 2,000 units from the Champion bonus.
Last wave of the game: 5,200 units, so 4,300 units base + 900 units from the Champion bonus.

My champion on a destroyer hull was simply not that powerful, not even close. Now, it was 10/10 so I expect punishing, but even the bonus part normal wave at 900 units would simply blow past my champion in a single salvo, I expect my champion to at least slow down the bonus ships the AI is getting due to it's presence.

D.

I could go with something like that. It would be similar to what is done with the fallen spire stuff.
After your first city, the AI is concerned, but isn't panicking. By your fifth city, the AI is starting to hate you, and is really laying on the pressure.

[Kahuna]

So maybe the AI starts with a 3% bonues, that goes up by 3% for every nebula completed? That would give it the 20% bonus after the 6th nebula which means you should have the cruiser hull and is when the champion really starts to shine.

Should be 4% or 5%.

[Diazo]

So maybe the AI starts with a 3% bonues, that goes up by 3% for every nebula completed? That would give it the 20% bonus after the 6th nebula which means you should have the cruiser hull and is when the champion really starts to shine.

Should be 4% or 5%.

If the champion stays as is, ya.

The impression I'm getting though is that the champion is currently too powerful in the normal space outside nebulas and we are looking as a nerf of some sort there.

Keep in mind this would go above 20%, so at 3% per, after the 9th nebula (does it seed that many?) you would be at a 30% bonus.

D.

[Cinth]

120 planet maps seed 15 nebula.  You guys are killing me here. Someone who knows all the modifiers can do the math but I play 16 HW and 8 champs on 120 planet maps.

[Diazo]

Actually, that is a good point.

What bonus does the AI get for multiple champions?

With 8, is it just the flat 20%? Or 20%*8 for a 960% bonus or is is 20%^8 for a 460% bonus?

D.

[Cinth]

160%

You can't really go up with it or you stand to hurt multiplayer. And also, even 8 cruisers get stomped by any kind of heavy wave.

I wonder if i have a good save I can give you guys so you can see the "other" end of the spectrum

Would anyone be interested?

[Diazo]

Oh, of course, the one possibility I did not list. (20+20+20....)

Anyways, for 8 champions under my suggestion that would start the game at 24%, going up 24% per nebula completed so that after the 6th nebula you are at 168% bonus.

Not sure how that would make things harder for multiple champions, you have 8 cruiser sized champions flying around by that point after all.

D.

[Cinth]

15 nebula. 24%*15.  360% increase after the 15th nebula. That's a bit more than the 160% I see now.

[Toranth]

120 planet maps seed 15 nebula.  You guys are killing me here. Someone who knows all the modifiers can do the math but I play 16 HW and 8 champs on 120 planet maps.

With 16HW and 8 Champions, every time the AI sends a wave at you, it will be a double wave, with each part being 9.6 times as strong as normal.  Yes, that means in multi-HW games, the Champion's +20% AI strength becomes a +40% AI strength.

You can't really go up with it or you stand to hurt multiplayer. And also, even 8 cruisers get stomped by any kind of heavy wave.

That's where I am right now; 8 Champion Cruisers getting either a) stomped or b) ignored by high-end waves or exowaves.

I need to do some more experiments, but right now I think there may be an issue with Champions and Exowaves.  I'm currently trying my first real 8 Champion + Fallen Spire game, and with 1 Spire City built the timed Exowave is charging at 10%/minute.

For comparison, I went back and opened a save from an earlier FS campaign.  In the 10/10, 11 HW, 6 Spire City game, the Exowave was charging at only 2%/minute.

[Diazo]

And everyone I'm seeing playing with champions is reporting that once you get the cruiser hull, the champions start to become overpowered.

I can only imaging it gets worse on the bigger hulls.

If you've done all 15 nebulas and have 8 Dreadnaughts/Super-Dreadnaughts (whatever the biggest hull is) with full unlocks roaming around, is 360% that out of line?

You probably only need 5 of those Champions on the attack which leaves 3 champions and your entire regular fleet for defense.

For comparison, a single champion would give the AI a 48% bonus after 15 nebulas under this scenario.

(Disclaimer: I have only played single HW, single Champion, this is theory crafting on my part.)

D.

Edit as per post above: Are champions really that weak to exo-waves? The general feel I'm getting is that champions are OP, but that might only be against the AIs regular forces.

[Cinth]

I doing 16 HW 10/10 8 champ Fallen Spire run. Working at getting the 4th shard, so 3 city hubs up and running. My AIP is around 175 after I've hit all the redux possible. The last Exo that came my way was 1150 ships there about with waves coming in at around 10k per double. It is getting brutal to make progress. I've 42 hours invested and 22 since I started doing the FS stuff.
I think my last CPA was in the 35k region (AI didn't have 35k ships to send)

My champs do well supporting my defense and offense.

I don't think the next hull will have over twice the firepower to make up the extra 200% increase there.

[Diazo]

Okay.

I need a check on champions. As I understand it, there are going to be 5 hulls sizes of various types that get unlocked as you progress with the hull types being awarded for number of nebula completed.

This reasonably set progression of hull sizes and their corresponding increase in power should allow a percent increase per nebula to be set and balance the increasing power of the champions that way.

In my opinion this is better then the current flat 20% the entire game. In the early game the Champion is not worth 20% bonus by any definition and in the late game the champion is worth a lot more then 20% in normal space outside of nebulas. (At least on single HW, maybe the multi-HW bonues should not scale linearly?)

The numbers are variable of course but I certainly favor the bonus increasing based on the number of nebulas complete rather then the same bonus the entire game as the champion gets more powerful.

D.

[Cinth]

We have one size that isn't in as far as I know.

4~5% per hull size unlock would be reasonable. That would put you at a 20% mod with the biggest hull size. It would also keep the max mod at 160% for 8 champ games.

[Toranth]

And everyone I'm seeing playing with champions is reporting that once you get the cruiser hull, the champions start to become overpowered.

<snip>

Edit as per post above: Are champions really that weak to exo-waves? The general feel I'm getting is that champions are OP, but that might only be against the AIs regular forces.

Champions, especially cruisers, are great at taking out average AI worlds.  A single Cruiser Champion of any variety can clear a Mk IV world with 200 ships without much difficulty (depending on ship types - Blade Spawners and Spire MiniRams are severe anti-Champion ships even in small numbers).  However, long alerted world with 600 Mk IV ships?  That Champion is toast.

With Waves and Exowaves, the biggest issue is that there are simply so many ships, and those ships have no interest in sticking around to play with your Champion.  Sure, you killed 100 of them... but so what?  There's thousands more where those came from, and they're already on top of your Home Command Station blasting away.

Okay.

I need a check on champions. As I understand it, there are going to be 5 hulls sizes of various types that get unlocked as you progress with the hull types being awarded for number of nebula completed.

This reasonably set progression of hull sizes and their corresponding increase in power should allow a percent increase per nebula to be set and balance the increasing power of the champions that way.

In my opinion this is better then the current flat 20% the entire game. In the early game the Champion is not worth 20% bonus by any definition and in the late game the champion is worth a lot more then 20% in normal space outside of nebulas. (At least on single HW, maybe the multi-HW bonues should not scale linearly?)

The numbers are variable of course but I certainly favor the bonus increasing based on the number of nebulas complete rather then the same bonus the entire game as the champion gets more powerful.

D.

From my experience, I'd say that's backwards.  At the beginning of the game, when the AI hasn't reinforced much and AIP is low enough that waves are still small, the Champion basically has free run of every system outside of Deepstrike.  As the game goes on, however, the Champions get more powerful.  But the AI also gets more powerful, and the percentage increase to the AI results in a much higher absolute increase in power.  At that point, the usefulness of the Champion begins to shrink rapidly.

Champions are probably at their most powerful right after your first or second Nebula (if you rush right to the scenarios), because they unlocked some stuff and gotten some XP for upgrades, but the AI hasn't gotten going yet.

I doing 16 HW 10/10 8 champ Fallen Spire run. Working at getting the 4th shard, so 3 city hubs up and running. My AIP is around 175 after I've hit all the redux possible. The last Exo that came my way was 1150 ships there about with waves coming in at around 10k per double. It is getting brutal to make progress. I've 42 hours invested and 22 since I started doing the FS stuff.
I think my last CPA was in the 35k region (AI didn't have 35k ships to send)

My champs do well supporting my defense and offense.

I don't think the next hull will have over twice the firepower to make up the extra 200% increase there.

Just curious - see if you can time the increase rate on one of the timed Exowaves.  I'd like to know if the huge charge-rate I'm seeing is something peculiar to my settings.