Author Topic: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions  (Read 116468 times)

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #210 on: August 25, 2012, 03:18:25 pm »
I am pretty sure that is just a statistical quirk. I have had different orders of nebulae in my games.

About xp: I think the current system is close to ideal. It is technically possible to farm, but that means your champion (and your attention) is occupied while the AI does its stuff (reinforcements, waves, cpas, exos, auto-AIP), and experience beyond unlocking mkIV versions of one small weapon and the best large slot does not give the player that much. Besides, there are other, probably more effective ways to use the champ during this time, like clearing out AI worlds.

About an all-quest-victory reward: the shadow dreadnaught.

About balance concerns for both exo-games and non-exo games: it is tricky. I like the route the devs appear to have chosen (make the champion be worth that 20% increase) but I worry that any champion properly balanced for the fallen spire campaign will be unbalanced for the normal game, and vice versa. Other exo sources create the same concern, but to a lesser extent.

 I can think of a number of clunky solutions (have the champ give a flat, rather than +.2 effective-homeworld boost to exos, have the champ have access to better modules/more experience/bigger hulls depending on exos, have the champ not affect exos but affect normal stuff more, etc), but nothing to elegantly address the central concern. Ideas?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 03:27:58 pm by Faulty Logic »
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #211 on: August 25, 2012, 03:44:01 pm »
Have exos give XP?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #212 on: August 25, 2012, 04:03:45 pm »
On scenario order: the order is mostly random.  One of the four defined scenarios (the mourners one) doesn't seed in the first nebula you enter, because it's the most champion-dependent of the four.  Other than that it just tries to avoid duplicates until it's run out of unique ones (the idea being that come official-release it will not do duplicates at all).
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Offline rchaneberg

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #213 on: August 25, 2012, 05:17:48 pm »
How problematic would it be to have only the lead ships of exos give experience, but to also make exos some (small multiplier) more powerful per champion?

Offline Commiesalami

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #214 on: August 25, 2012, 06:00:39 pm »
On scenario order: the order is mostly random.  One of the four defined scenarios (the mourners one) doesn't seed in the first nebula you enter, because it's the most champion-dependent of the four.  Other than that it just tries to avoid duplicates until it's run out of unique ones (the idea being that come official-release it will not do duplicates at all).

It was a 3% chance to happen which is still possible.  Just checking if it was intended behavior or not because earlier in the thread you refer to the nebula scenarios refer to them as 1st, 2nd, 3rd and thats the same order i've been seeing them in.

Thanks for the quick reply

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #215 on: August 25, 2012, 07:08:29 pm »
On scenario order: the order is mostly random.  One of the four defined scenarios (the mourners one) doesn't seed in the first nebula you enter, because it's the most champion-dependent of the four.  Other than that it just tries to avoid duplicates until it's run out of unique ones (the idea being that come official-release it will not do duplicates at all).

It was a 3% chance to happen which is still possible.  Just checking if it was intended behavior or not because earlier in the thread you refer to the nebula scenarios refer to them as 1st, 2nd, 3rd and thats the same order i've been seeing them in.

Thanks for the quick reply
One thing is that it uses the mapRandom to pick the scenarios, so saving, entering a nebula, reloading, and entering it again will give you the same scenario.  An entirely different map (different map type, for instance, but same seed) will give you different rolls.
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Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #216 on: August 25, 2012, 07:28:05 pm »
For what it's worth I am very definitely against any sort of farming; I would definitely prefer a system where the exp reward for each mission is fixed.  I really dislike that RPG temptation to track down every last little fight in order to make sure I don't miss out on getting to higher-level abilities.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #217 on: August 25, 2012, 07:59:41 pm »
I, too, would rather support fixed exp rewards. It gets to the point I try to tip the odds in my favor in some scenarios, then have my ship(s) sit next to a starbase and farm xp for doing nothing.

If the rewards were fixed it would also be easier to balance by virtue of having each player get a similar max lvl of xp, and same amount of xp per hull unlock.
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Offline rchaneberg

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #218 on: August 25, 2012, 08:13:00 pm »
Should there be a mechanic to try and balance champions for both play with exo sources and without?  If so, how would one do it without making it experience based?
Maybe having an additional Super-Dreadnaught hull somehow tied to whether exos are on or not?

I can't really envision anything that doesn't feel restrictive to non-exo games, though I almost never play without exo sources.
The point may be moot however if exos disregard the presence of champions or is only very subtly scaled as they don't seem very powerful in the presence of the ultra-chokepoints that seem to develop in reaction to the threat of exo attacks.

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #219 on: August 25, 2012, 10:05:22 pm »
Is there any reason popping command stations and defeating exos shouldn't just award the same amount of exp to all champions in the game?  I mean presumably even if one isn't present when you take a world it's helping by holding the fort somewhere else.

Offline Sunshine!

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #220 on: August 27, 2012, 01:56:57 pm »
I think the Hero ship should have more interaction with the primary aspects of the main game, rather than being relegated to only getting upgrades and new stuff from the nebulae.  In general, the harder the game is the more opportunities the hero should have to find upgrades outside the nebulae.  Below are ideas for how to integrate Zenith, Neinzul, and Spire upgrades as rewards for doing stuff outside the nebulae.

Another of the problems with Hero ships is that the costs of unlocking are problematic.  If you get to level 10, you can have one fully upgraded Large module and one fully upgraded Small module, which gives your ship little in the way of variety, and does not really encourage experimentation or multi-weapon deployment.  The suggestions below seek to address this as well, though in the random, unplanned way that characterizes technology unlocks in the normal game.

If you want to balance the Hero ship with Fallen Spire and the regular game, have all retrieval missions for Fallen Spire provide global XP to the hero and have the number of spire facilities control the unlock of certain ships and modules.  Retrieval of the refuge ship would give all heroes access to Spire frigates AND the lowest mark of a random spire modules, and then whenever a new spire ship class is available to build for the normal player, the Shadow (Spire) version of that ship class becomes unlocked for the hero, along with the lowest mark of a random spire module.  This is purposefully more powerful than the Zenith and Neinzul options below, because the power level necessary in a Fallen Spire campaign over its entire course is significantly higher.

If you have Golems (Hard) turned on, the normal player capturing a Golem should provide all hero players with (randomly) either a Zenith shadow vessel of the lowest available unlocked mark (so no unlocking a Zenith Destroyer if you don't already have another destroyer hull unlocked) OR the next mark of a random Zenith weapons module.  For Golems (Medium) it could instead have a random chance of providing upgrades (50% or lower?)

If Hybrid Hives are turned on, have it so that each level of Hybrid Hive is worth a certain level of "salvage".  When enough salvage is collected by the hero, it unlocks (randomly) the lowest applicable mark of Neinzul hull (same restrictions as above in the Zenith example) or a random Neinzul weapons system.  Unlike the previous two suggestions which are not necessarily based on the hero's actions, this suggestion prompts the players to aggressively pursue the Hybrid Hives, which I think is fitting because of the Hybrid Hives using a different logic that allows them to function more intelligently than the typical AI forces.

Edit: Human/generic upgrades could be gained by rescuing rebel human colonies and destroying marauders.  Destroying Golems and Spirecraft in exo waves should also contribute to unlocking Zenith and Spire modules, I suppose.

With all of the above turned on, heroes won't actually have to do nebulae missions to advance, which I think is an important choice to be able to have.  There will still be incentive to do so (free hulls and new weapons modules, plus knowledge for any normal players).  Without Fallen Spire they'll need to do nebula missions to get the next tier of ships, but it will still provide flexibility to hero players by giving them a broad range of mission choices and make hero play a little less one dimensional.

One other thing I would really like to see is a way for Normal players to assist Hero players in nebulae in some minor way so that it doesn't feel like we're playing two separate games, with me just watching and waiting for the nebula mission to clear up so I can move on with hero assistance.  Perhaps include an unlockable ship, the Shadow Transport (shipcap 1 or 2 to prevent easy shipping of your entire fleet at once, 2500 knowledge cost), which can carry a small number (25? 20?) of ships and traverse the nebula wormhole?  Say that the reverse-engineered shadow drive is so large it could only fit on a transport, and with significantly decreased transport capacity at that.  That way I (as a normal player) can join a Hero player in one of these battles, but ships I send will generally be hopelessly outclassed on their own.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 02:19:06 pm by Sunshine! »

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #221 on: August 30, 2012, 07:47:10 am »
I think that the champions (especially if they ever hit cruiser size) are OP in a normal (non-exo) game. The extra ships almost never make a difference to AI attacks, but the champion unit (and all the k, and all the awesome micro faction bonus starships) add a huge boost to fleet power. Again, I can't think of an elegant way to balance for both normal and exo games, but it definitely needs work.

Further unlikely ideas:
Make the AI more likely to attack while your champion is tied up in a nebula.
Give each AI a nemesis unit that constantly tries to murder your champion.
Let the presence of a champion in a game allow occasional triple waves, or unnannounced mini-exos, mini-waves, or mini-cpas (about 1/5 normal size).
Missile silo or other super-modules only allowable with exo sources (maybe a different one for each possible exo-source).
Let the champ get bigger hulls only in the presence of exos.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 05:40:32 pm by Faulty Logic »
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #222 on: August 30, 2012, 06:56:09 pm »
I am still struggling to find a compromise for champions on low planet games. On the one hand they tend to gather less aip, on the other hand they several gimp champion growth. On the one hand I try to remember with my gimped champion that I am paying less via less aip, but on the other hand I lament not being to get a cruiser.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #223 on: August 30, 2012, 06:58:55 pm »
I'm probably going to change it from having planets/10 scenarios to just 8 scenarios on every map, for balance reasons.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions
« Reply #224 on: August 30, 2012, 07:03:26 pm »
I approve of having a fixed number of nebulae.


On a tangentially related note, why are the nebula reward ships immune to transport? It just seems inconvienient. Same question for the resistance ships, incidentally.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 07:05:11 pm by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.