Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions

[keith.lamothe]

I do have some changes in mind that I think will help players not feel like they have to farm.


The term "grind" is largely unhelpful from a developer standpoint because it's used to mean so many things:

1) Gameplay that is trivially easy (by that stage of the game) but literally mandatory, so the player just goes through the motions because they want to get to the rest of the game.

2) Gameplay that is trivially easy and optional, but has sufficient rewards that the player goes through the motions because those rewards will help them get to the parts of the game they enjoy (or maybe those rewards are sufficient motivation in themselves).

3) Gameplay that may be quite challenging but that the player does not enjoy, but literally has to do to progress, so they do it to progress.

4) Gameplay that may be quite challenging but that the player does not enjoy, and is optional, but has sufficient rewards to motivate the player to do it anyway.

5) Gameplay that the player doesn't enjoy, even if it's challenging, optional, and has no rewards that can't be obtained elsewhere.  In other words, the player just doesn't like that part of the game.

And others.


So, while I understand it is a useful word when describing how you feel about a particular part of the game, if folks could clarify exactly what they mean by "grind" (maybe we need a wiki page with numbered definitions ) in the specific cases they use it, that would help me a lot in actually figuring out what to do about it, if there's anything I can do about it (someone not wanting to be motivated to gain XP is one thing, somoene who just doesn't like champions is another).

Thanks

[orzelek]

I think currently it would be quite close to point 4.
The need to drag the scenario so that we can kill as many spawned enemies as possible to get as much experience as possible in that nebula would qualify I think.
Scenario in itself is enjoyable (and challenging) - the need to try to prolong it to have a feeling you got all that you could is not.

I need to try some scenarios after recent changes to see at what point their difficulty lies for me now.

[TechSY730]

I think currently it would be quite close to point 4.
The need to drag the scenario so that we can kill as many spawned enemies as possible to get as much experience as possible in that nebula would qualify I think.
Scenario in itself is enjoyable (and challenging) - the need to try to prolong it to have a feeling you got all that you could is not.

I need to try some scenarios after recent changes to see at what point their difficulty lies for me now.

I think that an earlier proposed solution would be good. Make the spawned enemy minor faction ships in nebulae NOT give exp, possibly increasing exp rewards from destroying structures (both in and out of missions) to make up for it. That way, you are rewarded by completing the objective, instead of deliberately holding off on completing it to get as many enemy ships to spawn (and thus destroy for EXP) as possible.

[Cinth]

And others.

That's where it falls for me lol. I did send you some feedback this morning about the whole deal.

Since the scaling adjustment, it has been fun and challenging. The rewards are good. That want of a BIG stick to shake at the AI makes you want to get as many levels as you can.

[Nodor]

With champions, I am more concerned about feeling I MUST farm XP than actually farming XP. 

Right now, I feel I MUST strategize around maximizing the XP from each wormhole.

For instance in the Epsilon wormhole scenario, you can target the enemy bases off the bat or "defend ally bases" and "aid ally ships".    Option 2 is far more XP - and far more time.  Killing 200 -400 extra ships is more XP levels.   On the other hand, not having a champion defending vs. bad guys...

[Draco18s]

1) Gameplay that is trivially easy (by that stage of the game) but literally mandatory, so the player just goes through the motions because they want to get to the rest of the game.

3) Gameplay that may be quite challenging but that the player does not enjoy, but literally has to do to progress, so they do it to progress.

The balance between these two is why I do not play RPG games any more.  I attempted playing skyrim and merely following along with the quests I encountered at random (either it's the story quest, or one of the NPCs I decided to talk to, because talking to every NPC is #5: boring, optional, and non-challenging, and the rewards are meaningless) and I transitioned from #1: trivially easy and mandatory to #3: overly challenging and frustrating in a span of about 8 minutes.

I went from finding wolves to be a "delightful challenge" to "weaksauce wimps" in the time it took me to do the side quest that gets you your first dragon shout (which I did because I talked to a shop owner in order to buy/sell loot and saw he had a quest).  The next highest difficulty wandering mob equivalent to wolves that I ran into were saber toothed wildcats.

Which still eat me for breakfast.  Turns out there is one animal in between (ice wolves) of which I have encountered three.  The first nearly killed me, the second was killed by another animal, and the third did kill me (undoing about twenty minutes worth of progress).

What have people suggested?  Sneaking around town (a variant of #1) and stealing dwarven platemail (a variant of #4).

[keith.lamothe]

I think that an earlier proposed solution would be good. Make the spawned enemy minor faction ships in nebulae NOT give exp

The problem with that is that blowing stuff up and no numbers going up is Not Fun (tm)   There's been plenty of "why do I get nothing for killing normal AI fleet ships?" as it is, and making the individual nebula kills give nothing too is not a good solution.  It may solve one psychological problem, but it creates another.

That said, I do think they give too much in the current situation.  But I think the main solution is to provide sufficient motivation to complete the scenario rather than try to drag it out.  Other feedback I've seen is that the EEr and SP scenarios cannot really be dragged out all that long, but I do see that there is a motivation to do so to the extent possible, and I think that situation can be improved.

[Cinth]

I'll just reiterate what I suggested. 3~5 points for completing those two in a reasonable amount of time (30-45 min).

[LaughingThesaurus]

I'm still all for a simple XP cap for every planet and nebula, with everything providing XP. That way you can grind on boring ol' junk or you can just play the game normally and either way you'll be able to get all the "knowledge" you can eat up. For that to really work, it would have to be just the right kind of scarce that knowledge happens to be as well. Furthermore, imagine if it led to people making the decision to risk a deep strike for a bit of extra XP to unlock that next module... or even eat the AI Progress to level up a little more.
All the while, the XP cap per-nebula encourages you to keep things moving and to not drag it out. The XP cap for nebulas would have to definitely be higher than any per-planet XP cap.

The question is what happens if you aren't at the XP cap when everything in the nebula/on the planet is dead? Possibly, you could lure ships to those planets for a defense, which would get you XP... or you could simply add a science module for the biggest slots that you build to leave your champion dormant for a while and go beat on the AI with your sufficiently built up fleet or starships. Like science labs, it would slowly push your champion's XP up to the planetary cap.

[LordSloth]

So it looks like 5.070 will have a new AI Type.

Sadistic: I really hope Fortress King will stack with Nuclear Commands.

Sarcastic: While you're at it, why don't you replace stealth guard posts with Neinzul Forts... And make sure the Stealth Master uses em.

Am looking forward a lot to Zenith Siege Engines.

[keith.lamothe]

So it looks like 5.070 will have a new AI Type.

Sadistic: I really hope Fortress King will stack with Nuclear Commands.

I don't think it will need that to be sadistic.  Those things hurt.  I threw in a minor mercy: the planets neighboring your homeworld still have normal command stations (unless it's a crazy-small map where there's only your homeworlds and the AI homeworlds).

But I think it would stack, yes.

[soMe_RandoM]

I feel that all other nebular give to little XP. i completed 3 spire camp and i could hardely reach any level. i suggest that when its all fixed to quad or even entire system to increase xp range. because in other nebular that don't have spawning ships that, i feel problem is its to much of OSHITZ i was out RANGE THIS ONE SHIP now I'm doomed feeling. this happens all time at start of spire one. if you increase XP range in nebular by allot maybe even entire system, and lower xp gain from ones u complain about but keep range. it work out fine. in end 3 nebular system should give you to unlock m4 sheilds, hopefully, and maybe standard turret range, and 1 bonus turret / modual range. eg Heavy beam. lvl 24 on old system gave me that. however i was stupid and bought 1 extra thing and couldent get mk4. -_-. also what i hate is when beat system with 50-100 ally faction units, that go to next system and kill all guard post within 2 hops. it devastates me since now all that xp gone. so i suggest have XP gain radius increase massivly. Xp with ones where limited xp where u cant grind, and I'm happy to grind because it better xp but, other ones i dislike because missing out on 1 death huge %. and have them clear 2-3 systems of guard post that u missed out on since they split it hurts allot. so i prefer other 2 than new ones since it hurts u less to miss few ships here and there. however other 3 hurt so much.

[TechSY730]

About the whole "changing module loadout on the move" issue, the only reason why modules aren't changeable in the field is to prevent easily cheesing the system by just always getting fresh shield modules, right?
Then why not just make the shield modules (and any other potentially limited lifetime modules when in use) be unable to be constructed by the champion itself , but allow the champion to construct its own non-forcefield modules? This would allow switching out "turret" modules easily based on the situation, but still require engineer support to keep its forcefields up if they get destroyed. Thanks to the invincibility the non-forcefield modules have right now, this shouldn't be add any new "exploitiness".

This may require some clever "hackarounds" to implement though.


On a semi-related note, are champion only players not eligible to receive the "overflow" funds from other players?

[Ozymandiaz]

I do have some changes in mind that I think will help players not feel like they have to farm.


The term "grind" is largely unhelpful from a developer standpoint because it's used to mean so many things:

1) Gameplay that is trivially easy (by that stage of the game) but literally mandatory, so the player just goes through the motions because they want to get to the rest of the game.

2) Gameplay that is trivially easy and optional, but has sufficient rewards that the player goes through the motions because those rewards will help them get to the parts of the game they enjoy (or maybe those rewards are sufficient motivation in themselves).

3) Gameplay that may be quite challenging but that the player does not enjoy, but literally has to do to progress, so they do it to progress.

4) Gameplay that may be quite challenging but that the player does not enjoy, and is optional, but has sufficient rewards to motivate the player to do it anyway.

5) Gameplay that the player doesn't enjoy, even if it's challenging, optional, and has no rewards that can't be obtained elsewhere.  In other words, the player just doesn't like that part of the game.

And others.


So, while I understand it is a useful word when describing how you feel about a particular part of the game, if folks could clarify exactly what they mean by "grind" (maybe we need a wiki page with numbered definitions ) in the specific cases they use it, that would help me a lot in actually figuring out what to do about it, if there's anything I can do about it (someone not wanting to be motivated to gain XP is one thing, somoene who just doesn't like champions is another).

Thanks

For me a grind is more or less the old super-terminal: I would build up defenses, and then build a command center. Kill as much as possible, then kill my own command center before the AI get too many reinforcements. Rinse and repeat until the cycle can no longer be sustained.

So in other words, repetitive doing the same thing over and over for the same rewards in order to gain an advantage for the later game.

In moderation, some grinding is OK, but when it can be taken to the extreme on the other hand..

Maybe my explanation was not all that good, will see if I can dream up something better once I get some coffee

[Commiesalami]

I dont know if this has been mentioned elsewhere, but I really don't like how all the nebula missions are going to be in a certain order ...  (If not then all 3 matches I've played have had the missions in the same order) 

For a game that prides itself on being procedurally generated having a differing experience every time, doing the exact same thing in the exact same order for every game seems like a step in the wrong direction.