Reactions to Ancient Shadows and Suggestions

[chemical_art]

I find it odd that xp gained in nebula is not gained by a set amount, but rather based on ships destroyed there. Since you cannot get xp from destroying ships outside of nebulas, and since nebulas get stronger each time, it encourages grinding so as to kill as many ships you can before it ends rather then trying to end it.

[keith.lamothe]

I find it odd that xp gained in nebula is not gained by a set amount, but rather based on ships destroyed there. Since you cannot get xp from destroying ships outside of nebulas, and since nebulas get stronger each time, it encourages grinding so as to kill as many ships you can before it ends rather then trying to end it.

Yea, I'm thinking of changing that.  The third scenario (and the fourth one that I'm almost done with) reward pursuing the objectives as hard as you can; the first two reward dragging it out.  Something should be done

[Hearteater]

I was actually expecting XP to work a bit more like Knowledge.  There is a fixed amount in each game.  So the goal would be to successfully complete missions, not come up with optimal farming techniques.  Of course missions might have tiered rewards based on how you did, but I was thinking in terms of secondary objectives and such, not just kills.

[chemical_art]

I would be a fan of doing this as well:

Increase the champion xp requirements of all levels by 10
Increase the champion xp gains for all current things by 10
Allow for each ai fleetship destroyed on while the champion is on give 1 xp

The goal being the champion still gains xp very very slowly from destroying ships. Key word being slow. It would take 7500 ai fleetships to lvl to lvl 2, and more still after word. The goal is that it gives a slow, but unlimited, form of xp for the champion if the player is unable to reach more nebulas for a time. It may seem high, but with higher aip it could give toward 1k xp or maybe more per wave.

[Cinth]

Nothing there to stop someone from setting up on the deepstrike route and farming a constant stream of ships for xp.

I'm thinking grinding just to max our champs is out of the question.

For the curious, 136 points to max out currently. Lvl 100 is around 4,000,000 xp. it took me around 40 hours of straight grinding (before the scaling buff btw) to get there. It would take an inordinate amount of time to max out after Mk V modules come into play. 

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, I don't want infinitely-farmable stuff to give XP.  I'm ok with temporarily-farmable stuff (nebula ships) giving XP as long as the scenario progresses towards termination or there's some sufficient motive to finish the scenario; that's true for the 3rd one (and the 4th one, which is basically done now, just gotta do some other stuff before a release), but the 1st and 2nd need work.

For AI ships, I'm thinking having them give 1 point (per mark, perhaps) of shadow-charge might be a good way of having them give something, but not something that can be infinitely farmed.  Even that may prove unbalancing by letting the champion drop truckloads of projected ability units onto the field in the middle of a massive attack.  On the other hand, "in the middle of a massive attack" may be exactly when they need to do so.  On the third hand, it might lead to a lot of having to pause to properly use the abilities (even with better keybinds for using them) before your capacitor maxes out from the AI ship deaths, etc.

Lotsa hands to consider.

[Cinth]

More to micro    Honestly, I'd rather see the content added in (yea bug hunt!) and polished afterwards. The only good thing about having all those points was the ability to try out different set ups without running several different games or saving then spending points to see if it works.

[orzelek]

I would have a bit different question then:

Do you see player gaining access to all high level modules as good or bad thing?

PS.
Making scenario reward you with more or less "things" depending on how well you do it will lead to save/load grind if this makes you lose the ability to receive that "things".

[Cinth]

If you have everything then you don't really have to make any interesting choices about what to unlock.

It would be like if an ARS hack gave you all 3 ship designs.  You would be foolish to not take advantage of all the ARS in that way.

[LaughingThesaurus]

I kinda like the idea of exp being like knowledge, and ships giving exp. That way... Nebulas can be the dominant and more unlimited exp source, and the champion can gain exp by killing stuff on each planet, but only to a particular cap. So, the champion can gain 3000 exp by killing 3000 enemy ships on planet X, but no more than that.
The question would be whether you'd have to capture the planet or do something to it first. In which case it'd probably be too complicated of an idea to try.

[Eternaly_Lost]

If you have everything then you don't really have to make any interesting choices about what to unlock.

It would be like if an ARS hack gave you all 3 ship designs.  You would be foolish to not take advantage of all the ARS in that way.

There is a simple way around that. Move the weapon types into rewards from nebula, like Hull are and give a pick of say three different types and you start with a basic gun that is neither good or bad. Then, you farm XP to basically increase the effectiveness of the weapon lines you selected, but you can't unlock everything unless you have an unlimited number of nebula.

Even better would be to remove the mk ranks of the weapons from selection. The End user just put what kind of gun they want on it, and with every kill that gun levels up until it reaches it max level. It also provides nice feedback when you glace at the champion to see what weapons on it has done the best (they will be at a higher level then the others) and what ones are not really doing anything for some reason (low to no level up).

This way seems to fit in my mind with the idea of the champion more then how it set up right now. You go to a nebula to get a new hull, upgraded hull and/or weapon type, but you go and kill random AI ships to make your weapons better.

Also, one thing I really like to see is an option between two hulls when you complete a nebula. Basically an option to move your current hull up a level, or unlock a new class. Right now I rather leave some nebulas if it was not for the XP due to the fact that I know that completing them grants me something I can't use at all.

[Cinth]

There is a simple way around that. Move the weapon types into rewards from nebula, like Hull are and give a pick of say three different types and you start with a basic gun that is neither good or bad. Then, you farm XP to basically increase the effectiveness of the weapon lines you selected, but you can't unlock everything unless you have an unlimited number of nebula.

We get 3 weapon modules and shields at the start. Missile mod is available and you can go kill some AI structures if you think you will need them before you start the first nebula.  Keith has already said no to farming for points. His point is that he doesn't want us grinding to unlock everything. I agree and it would take an inordinate amount of time to grind out the 267 points you would need to max all 19 module lines.

Even better would be to remove the mk ranks of the weapons from selection. The End user just put what kind of gun they want on it, and with every kill that gun levels up until it reaches it max level. It also provides nice feedback when you glace at the champion to see what weapons on it has done the best (they will be at a higher level then the others) and what ones are not really doing anything for some reason (low to no level up).

This way seems to fit in my mind with the idea of the champion more then how it set up right now. You go to a nebula to get a new hull, upgraded hull and/or weapon type, but you go and kill random AI ships to make your weapons better.

This presents pretty much the same issues. Farming or grinding out stuff isn't the direction we need to go in.

Also, one thing I really like to see is an option between two hulls when you complete a nebula. Basically an option to move your current hull up a level, or unlock a new class. Right now I rather leave some nebulas if it was not for the XP due to the fact that I know that completing them grants me something I can't use at all.

16 hulls, 19 module types, MCEK, free ships, and the possibility of upgraded on use abilities? There are always reasons to do the nebulae, and we haven't seen all of what Keith has planned.

[Ozymandiaz]

Yea, I don't want infinitely-farmable stuff to give XP.  I'm ok with temporarily-farmable stuff (nebula ships) giving XP as long as the scenario progresses towards termination or there's some sufficient motive to finish the scenario; that's true for the 3rd one (and the 4th one, which is basically done now, just gotta do some other stuff before a release), but the 1st and 2nd need work.

For AI ships, I'm thinking having them give 1 point (per mark, perhaps) of shadow-charge might be a good way of having them give something, but not something that can be infinitely farmed.  Even that may prove unbalancing by letting the champion drop truckloads of projected ability units onto the field in the middle of a massive attack.  On the other hand, "in the middle of a massive attack" may be exactly when they need to do so.  On the third hand, it might lead to a lot of having to pause to properly use the abilities (even with better keybinds for using them) before your capacitor maxes out from the AI ship deaths, etc.

Lotsa hands to consider.

Indeed. I have played a few games now as normal + champion, and when you suddenly got a huge blob of bombers coming to visit you, a lot of nifty abilities is nice. Last time my champion was dust after a few seconds, and so was my command center while my fleet kept futilely shooting the blob

And I know myself enough to say that if I can farm XP from an unlimited source, I will do so. Just as I kinda abused the old AI SuperTerminals. I don't think I am alone in this either ;P

[Nodor]

With champions, I am more concerned about feeling I MUST farm XP than actually farming XP. 

Right now, I feel I MUST strategize around maximizing the XP from each wormhole.

[orzelek]

Two posters above are saying good things.

If there is a feeling that to have effective champions we need to grind... we will.
Some limitation maybe in order then - to balance the grind possibilities vs how much we can upgrade the champion.