Author Topic: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads  (Read 6403 times)

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2014, 02:43:44 am »
You could use Mark III EMP Warhead and then go in with Assault Transports and attack the GCS.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2014, 03:16:03 am »
I feel like I really want the days of the old engine back. I dunno, it just felt better. Felt like it handled lots of stuff without dieing. That feeling probably has something to do with caps being dropped in half since the change. But since I'm pretty sure we arent getting that back..

Should lightning warheads instead become a sort of Ion warhead? A very large range weapon that just straight up instakills n mkx targets (where n probably scales by mk, and x is well.. mk.)

My main concern about the difference between warheads and martyrs is that martyrs will tractor a ton of targets and keep them in position, as well as having a (iirc) bigger aoe to begin with. (looks like 1.5k*mk lightning, 3->5k on martyrs). Id kinda like to just make that bigger. And by bigger, I mean kinda mapwide. Maybe just 20k? range? That sounds large, but it might be too short.

Anyway, basic proposal:

Ion Warhead Mk N
AIP +N
Instakills Mk N+2 ships and below
Deals N,000 engine damage
N0,000 range
Hits N,000 targets.
Some sort of magical "hits targets inside of carriers"

I feel like this properly solves the question of "how many targets do i kill" (by directly killing n thousand) while providing a very clear cut reason as to WHY it kills n thousand targets. Also, exo-waves include far too many units. I wanted to make this N+2 instakilling to make mk1 warheads useful (clearing waves for pretty much all game), while also making mk3 warheads worth their expense, and justify them as a big warhead.

Id of course also suggest a corollary to this, the Mass Warhead, which blows up big things.. Probably through just high impact damage, pretending they are spirecraft rams? then probably leave martyrs where they are? I dont know this is complicated. Honestly id probably just merge spire rams and martyrs into a sort of impact damage+aoe thing with tractors. Maybe even give them a damage bonus for each thing they have tractored? (also, I would do a similar thing for mini-rams, aka 'the shitty autobomb', give them some aoe damage on top of their impact damage (thought - Any damage that isnt dealt as direct damage becomes area damage? Not sure how the numbers would work out) Better at blowing up starships still, but not terrible against everything else. )

Honestly, what strikes me right now as a problem of aiwar is that there is relatively little way to actually deal with 'groups' of enemy ships. I think this is probably a design decision, but when your ships are literally hard capped in the amount of firepower you can actually bring to the enemy, it makes dealing with some things feel quite literally out of your control. You cant really fight an exo-wave to death without either murdering large parts of it at a chokepoint in waves, or attritioning it to death (which is VERY hard given the build rates of 'big' ships, and the low value-per-ship of small ships.. without true attrition devices)

Then again, like I said - A lot of this is by design. Youre not supposed to be able to field a fleet that matches the AI at pretty much any point in the game. Also I think I've gone on about 5 tangents in this post alone, but its okay because the entire thread is currently in tangent-land

(also seriously I hate carriers so much)
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2014, 03:23:43 am »
Rather than a slow, heavy armor warhead, make it a lighting fast, deepstrike weapon. Rather than a large aoe deathblast, make it either a single target shot, or plasma siege bolt on steroids. A very small aoe, but devastating to anything it hits. Very useful for eliminating single, high value targets, but rather useless against large numbers of smaller targets.
Yes.

Lightning Warhead for multiple "soft" targets
Armored Warhead for single tough target
Martyr = Lightning Warhead + Spire Tractor Platform On Steroids

I'd like to be able to do this to a Hunter/Killer.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Draco18s

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2014, 09:26:26 am »
Yeah, last time I used a lightning warhead I was disappointed at its pathetic range.  It's also really hard to figure out exactly how wide 1500 units is (can we get a range overlay on these guys too?)

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2014, 02:19:25 pm »
Rather than a slow, heavy armor warhead, make it a lighting fast, deepstrike weapon. Rather than a large aoe deathblast, make it either a single target shot, or plasma siege bolt on steroids. A very small aoe, but devastating to anything it hits. Very useful for eliminating single, high value targets, but rather useless against large numbers of smaller targets.
Yes.

Lightning Warhead for multiple "soft" targets
Armored Warhead for single tough target
Martyr = Lightning Warhead + Spire Tractor Platform On Steroids

I'd like to be able to do this to a Hunter/Killer.

So what did you think of the full idea I described for my Plasma Siege Torpedoes?

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2014, 11:44:07 pm »
As long as the lightning and armored warheads get an "immunity to AOE immunity" like the spirecraft martyrs do, I will be happy.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2014, 12:01:41 am »
As long as the lightning and armored warheads get an "immunity to AOE immunity" like the spirecraft martyrs do, I will be happy.
Check the current 7.023 notes.  I don't see anything in there about adding AOE immunity immunity.
Actually, there is a note that AI Home Command Stations and GCSs are now going to be immune to both Warheads and Martyrs.

On the other hand...
10,000,000,000 damage split across a 20,000 radius?  Yikes!


EDIT:  I notice 5 levels of Martyr listed.  Is this... good news for us?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2014, 10:32:00 am »
As long as the lightning and armored warheads get an "immunity to AOE immunity" like the spirecraft martyrs do, I will be happy.
I've maintained the distinction as part of what makes martyrs different from warheads.  Which of you want that changed?

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Actually, there is a note that AI Home Command Stations and GCSs are now going to be immune to both Warheads and Martyrs.
the AI Home CS's already were effectively immune to warheads (by being immune to aoe in general) but weren't immune to martyrs.  For the GCS's I didn't want the last part of the showdown to be "2 mkI lightning warheads, gg".

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On the other hand...
10,000,000,000 damage split across a 20,000 radius?  Yikes!
For the low, low price of 1 Adamantite...

Haha, yea, in testing one was pretty ridiculous.  We'll see.


Quote
EDIT:  I notice 5 levels of Martyr listed.  Is this... good news for us?
I didn't reinstate the mark Is for reptite.  I can do so, I'm just not sure it's a good idea.  On the other hand, with siege towers and (in 7.023) translocators both being available for reptite, and both being pretty beastly, maybe it won't be so obvious that reptite => martyrs as in the past.
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Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: Spirecraft Martyrs and Lightning Warheads
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2014, 02:38:15 pm »
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I've maintained the distinction as part of what makes martyrs different from warheads.  Which of you want that changed?
I want the situation reversed. Warheads should have aoe immunity immunity, and martyrs shouldn't, because AIP is a lot more costly than asteroids.

Quote
Haha, yea, in testing one was pretty ridiculous.  We'll see.
I'm sure balance will be ongoing.
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.