Ravenous Shadow: WTF?

[MaxAstro]

Continuing my string of getting my butt handed to me by the nebula missions, we come to my first encounter with the Ravenous Shadow.

This was in a multiplayer game with three champions (all under my control; the other player was handling the fleet stuff).  The Shadow was my third nebula, so I had fully kitted out Destroyers (all three were human destroyers, mounting a variety of weapons; all Mk3 but nothing with bonuses against ultra-heavy because as far as I know there's nothing but missile launchers that does).  My enemy was two Shadows.

When I lost the nebula, the first shadow still had 20% health left and the second was untouched.  At no point did I stop shooting them, and I never died or had to leave to repair.  Literally 100% constant damage was not enough to kill ONE of these things.

Am I doing something terribly wrong, or is this nebula just really unfair?

[Kahuna]

Let's be blunt (once again): I don't know much about Champions or Nebulas but I know enough to keep them disabled. Nebulas are uninteresting and tedious. AI War is supposed to be deep and challenging while minimizing micro management. Well.. when doing nebula things I have to constantly baby sit and micro the Champion. And because of this non stop baby sitting I can't do anything else besides well.. baby sit the champion. This means my fleet is sitting useless, time is running and Exos and CPAs are charging up.

Also this would make more sense

All champions can be controlled by anyone anyway (player 1 can control all 8 Champions). This would make more sense and be more intuitive.

And Nebulas could be in the "AI Options" --> "Minor Factions To Include" section. Without intensity setting (like cookie monster).

AND the Champions could gain EXP by destroying AI ships and buildings.

"Boom! Problem solved!".. ?

[Tridus]

Continuing my string of getting my butt handed to me by the nebula missions, we come to my first encounter with the Ravenous Shadow.

This was in a multiplayer game with three champions (all under my control; the other player was handling the fleet stuff).  The Shadow was my third nebula, so I had fully kitted out Destroyers (all three were human destroyers, mounting a variety of weapons; all Mk3 but nothing with bonuses against ultra-heavy because as far as I know there's nothing but missile launchers that does).  My enemy was two Shadows.

When I lost the nebula, the first shadow still had 20% health left and the second was untouched.  At no point did I stop shooting them, and I never died or had to leave to repair.  Literally 100% constant damage was not enough to kill ONE of these things.

Am I doing something terribly wrong, or is this nebula just really unfair?

Yes, and yes. Ravenous Shadow is basically a straight DPS/gear check. If you get it in a Cruiser level hull, it's reasonably easy. If you get it in a Destroyer level hull... yeah. It is possible in a Destroyer, but only under the right conditions. And that comes to the part where you were doing something wrong. Don't worry though, I made the same mistake until I learned how these things work.

Honestly when I do nebulae now, I save the game before going into one. That way I can do one of two things:
1. Reload the save and not do that one. If I get Shattered Pillar's 3 way battle on a frigate or Ravenous Shadow on a destroyer without the right equipment unlocked (more on that later), I just reload. The first one is a grindy hell on a frigate but easy on a destroyer, and the second one is basically impossible in a destroyer without the right unlocks (which you may not have yet due to chance). But if you reload the save and go to a different nebula instead, you can likely get a different scenario.

2. Change hulls before going in. If you go to the same nebula after reloading a save, you'll always get the same scenario. Some hulls are better than others in given scenarios and you want to try to go in with the right one. Though if you're not sure, go in with a Zenith one. That's always a solid choice for a nebula.

The Human shadow ship is not the one you want to do nebulae in if you have the Zenith one instead. The Zenith one's main ship gun does a lot more damage, and it can mount more heavy modules (more missile launchers, which you need for base destroying and attacking the Ravenous Shadow).

The Spire one also excels at base attacks because the Photon Lance does a boatload of damage and it can mount a ton of shields (or more Photon Lances), but it's not as good at moving targets. So for this one, go Zenith.

The next thing to do is to change every light hardpoint to Polarizers (deals more damage to ships with more armor) or Impulse Emitters (deals more damage to ships that use more energy). Every other light hardpoint option is barely going to scratch the paint of the Ravenous Shadow. With that done, all you can do is attack it and hope it parks near the starbases for most of the fight (while it still has Neinzul ships to attack) so that their DPS helps you out.

Honestly, I just don't do this one until I have cruisers. But it is doable if you happen to have a Zenith hull and polarizers or impulse emitters. If not, then I don't think it's possible.

[onyhow]

You need anti-ultra-heavy stuff...human hull isn't good enough for that, especially its main weapon is designed for clearing light ships and have lower standard DPS than Zenith or Spire...also have less heavy slot for for missile launcher or such too...

[keith.lamothe]

As discussed in other threads, various options for reworking champions are on the table; most likely they will need to take the form of providing alternate/additional options on top of what is there because there are quite a few players who like it the way it is, but I do understand that many people simply don't like the nebulae as they are now, etc.  I'm not working on that right now because we're giving a bit of time for any post-official critical issues to be discovered in case we want to do another quick official (we may actually do another steam-official for another reason, we'll see).  But in the coming weeks I'm happy to jump back onto this train if that's really where folks' priorities are.


On the subject of the micro, I'm happy to try to pare down any unnecessary micro and so on with champions or anything else, but one important comparison:


Normally one of the core rules of this game's design is that "the player always sets the pace".
But some players really wanted the game to come after them more aggressively/unpredictably/uncontrollably than that.
So we added Hybrids, which blatantly break that rule.

But there are certainly players for who that rule is really important and so they'll never, ever like Hybrids.  There's no way around that, and there doesn't need to be a way around that.


Normally one of the core rules of this game's design is "minimize micromanagement".
But some players really wanted hero units, and something to bump up the skill cap, and so on.
So we added Champions, which more-or-less blatantly break that rule (though in an actual normal-space battle a champ can function just fine as part of a blob, albeit you can get more from them through clever tricks).

But there are probably players for whom the foundational concept of the hero unit is simply counter to what they want (due to inherently-higher micro, if nothing else).  There's no way around that, and there doesn't need to be a way around that.

[Toranth]

Normally one of the core rules of this game's design is "minimize micromanagement".
But some players really wanted hero units, and something to bump up the skill cap, and so on.
So we added Champions, which more-or-less blatantly break that rule (though in an actual normal-space battle a champ can function just fine as part of a blob, albeit you can get more from them through clever tricks).

Personally, I find Champions to require much less micromanagement than Golems - because Golems are irreplaceable.  The nebulae don't require any more micro than any other hard battle (Aka, one that FRD won't win), it just tends to last longer.

I will agree, though, that the Ravenous Shadow, in a destroyer, without polarizers, is VERY hard.

[MaxAstro]

I'm somewhere in the middle, Keith; I love the champion, and I love the micro-heavy battles the champion creates.

What I don't like is how ~grind~ heavy many of the nebula are.  I really WANT to like all of the nebula.  Some - Epsilon Erdrani and the dimension prisons come to mind - are very fun and I don't mind doing repeatedly.

Some, however, are basically "gear checks" as mentioned above (BTW I only have human and neinzul hulls, and my weapon unlocks are interceptors, paralyzers, and HBCs, so I think Ravenous Shadow is impossible for me right now).  Gear checks as a gameplay mechanic are fine.  The problem, however, is that they are gear checks that you have no way of knowing is coming, and nothing in the game to tell you how to prepare for them.  If you walk into a nebula and you don't have all the right gear for it, it's time to reload a save.

Still, it's good to hear that I'm not just doing something horribly wrong and the scenario actually is silly hard. 

To reiterate, Keith: I like the concept of nebula, and I really like some of the nebula.  A lot of people are bashing on the whole nebula mechanic as a whole and I'm not really with that crowd.  I'm just getting frustrated with the execution of a couple of the nebula. 

[keith.lamothe]

Some, however, are basically "gear checks" as mentioned above (BTW I only have human and neinzul hulls, and my weapon unlocks are interceptors, paralyzers, and HBCs, so I think Ravenous Shadow is impossible for me right now).

Do you not have access to Missiles for the large slots?  I thought those were always available but I may recall incorrectly.

[MaxAstro]

I don't have the points to unlock high level missiles for all my champions.  It's cool, though, I'll just hit up a different and more possible nebula or two and come back to this one.

The ravenous shadow has won this round, but when I return with three battleships mounting whatever crazy weapons battleship hulls mount (never even seen one before...), it'll have another thing coming.  ^_^

PS In my opinion, especially since you are trying to appeal to the micro-heavy crowds who tend to have lots of twitch reflexes, the nebula as a whole would be a lot more fun if they were resolved a lot faster.  Give everything in the nebula 1/2 the health and 2x the speed (while keeping the short range to keep things interesting) would be a good start, for example.  If the nebula were as occasionally-unbalanced as they are now, but took 1/4 the time to tell you that you failed the gear check, I think the fun quotient would be better preserved.

Another thing that would be awesome is allowing champions that die inside a nebula to respawn at that nebula's large starbase (if it has one; I like, for example, that the dimensional prison nebula doesn't have one and forces you to play cautiously as a result).  Otherwise, if the nebula is more than a few hops out, one death basically = you lose.

[Bognor]

Some, however, are basically "gear checks" as mentioned above (BTW I only have human and neinzul hulls, and my weapon unlocks are interceptors, paralyzers, and HBCs, so I think Ravenous Shadow is impossible for me right now).

Do you not have access to Missiles for the large slots?  I thought those were always available but I may recall incorrectly.

Missiles are always available, assuming you've got 1 point to unlock them at Mark I.

[Tridus]

Some, however, are basically "gear checks" as mentioned above (BTW I only have human and neinzul hulls, and my weapon unlocks are interceptors, paralyzers, and HBCs, so I think Ravenous Shadow is impossible for me right now).

Do you not have access to Missiles for the large slots?  I thought those were always available but I may recall incorrectly.

He'll have the missiles, but the Human or Neinzul destroyers can't mount enough of them to kill the Ravenous Shadow fast enough. At least not if you also mount any shields, and if the thing looks at you without shields you'll be flying back from your command station. He's also got nothing for his light hardpoints that will even dent it.

That particular one is one of the harder scenarios and is just brutal in a destroyer if you didn't get lucky unlocks.

[LaughingThesaurus]

What I'm seeing a lot of is the idea of 'if you don't get good unlocks, you just lose future scenarios by default'. I've even experienced this like, all the time. Where, my micro would essentially be top notch and yet my ally bases would just slowly die off. What if you got a number of ARS-like selections based on how many modules you'd normally get? So, say, if you WOULD get 3 modules, you get 3 tabs that each have 3 different modules in them. You choose which ones you want from the limited selection, but the choices you get are different each time. It does help push players towards using everything but you can also make choices for the modules that you really need.

[nitpik]

I don't remember any exact loadouts, but I found that trying to drop my shields over the light IMT ships, the ones that die easily but also have a bonus against ultra-heavy, helps quite a bit.

The scenario that is beating me senseless most times I get it these days is the suicidal colony ships. Even with a hull and unlocks that can kill the enemy starbases efficiently, the friendly zenith get overwhelmed very fast. I was also wondering if kililng each enemy starbases also triggers a wave of reinforcements that makes winning the dps race particularly hard.


P.S. Personally, I like the micro with the nebula scenarios.

[Aklyon]

The Nebulas can be neat. But the lack of knowing what you'll get (or when you'll get it if ever this time in comparison to when you find the RS) makes it annoying to do for me most of the time.

[MaxAstro]

I think nebula also vary in difficulty wildly with player approach.

For example, the Lord of the Colony Ships nebula is one of my favorite - it's really intense, but totally winnable with good micro.  I've gotten hammered, but never lost it.  Obviously nitpik is having a different experience. 

I definitely feel that having more control over the rewards you get would make things more sane.

It would also, unfortunately, take away the fun of having to work with the toys the RNG gives you.