Author Topic: Ravenous Shadow  (Read 3468 times)

Offline Mad Rubicant

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Ravenous Shadow
« on: May 03, 2014, 02:09:15 am »
So, am I the only one that thinks this thing needs a nerf, considering how early you can encounter it? I know it can be killed; I've done it before, but with a single champion, 750 million HP is just too much at Destroyer hull.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2014, 06:18:45 am »
Unfortunately, that scenario and the Malfunctioning Gatlings are two where the easy depends heavily upon your available modules.

Armor Polarizer modules do wonders.  IREs, Doom Accelerators, and Paralyzers your (distant) second choice small modules.
Missiles and Bomber Bays are both pretty good for your heavy module.

If you don't have upgraded polarizers AND you don't have upgraded bomber bays or missiles, you're in trouble.  If you don't have upgraded versions of both one of these small AND large modules, you are pretty much out of luck.

Offline Mad Rubicant

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2014, 11:30:14 am »
Unfortunately, that scenario and the Malfunctioning Gatlings are two where the easy depends heavily upon your available modules.

Armor Polarizer modules do wonders.  IREs, Doom Accelerators, and Paralyzers your (distant) second choice small modules.
Missiles and Bomber Bays are both pretty good for your heavy module.

If you don't have upgraded polarizers AND you don't have upgraded bomber bays or missiles, you're in trouble.  If you don't have upgraded versions of both one of these small AND large modules, you are pretty much out of luck.
It was the 3rd Nebula I encountered (After Epsilon Erdani and Mourners), so the only modules I had were Bomber (Just how strong are those, anyways?), Flak, and Translocator. I maxed out my missile module for it, but it's just not enough. I could probably do it in the hull one up from Destroyer, but not that early.

As for the Malfunctioning Gatlings Nebula, I think it's in a good place. I had a game where it was my first nebula, and I beat it just fine.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2014, 12:05:11 pm »
Mass Photon Lance also works for the RS (then again, if you have enough of those they work for any nebula really), but the grey spire malfunctioning gatlings one? I've rarely had trouble with it, and a good amount of the time its my first nebula. All laser and shield modules, and placing shields over the allies does pretty well. Doesn't always keep the forward base intact, but I've never lost that one. Certainly have lost to the RS more than once however.

Offline Toranth

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2014, 01:59:34 pm »
It was the 3rd Nebula I encountered (After Epsilon Erdani and Mourners), so the only modules I had were Bomber (Just how strong are those, anyways?), Flak, and Translocator. I maxed out my missile module for it, but it's just not enough. I could probably do it in the hull one up from Destroyer, but not that early.
No Zenith hull is unfortunate, and the Neinzul hull is almost never useful in the Nebulas.  So, Human hull Destroyer.  That means 12 small and 3 large hardpoints. 
Large hardpoints are the most important, so let's look at them first.
Against the RS, Missiles get the Ultra-Heavy multiplier, so they do 150,000 DPS per Mark = 450,000 DPS per module at Mk III.
The only other Heavy module with Ultra-Heavy multipliers is the Plasma Siege Cannon - you neither have the module, not the hull, so not useful.
Bomber Bays produce 3 drones every 5 seconds, with a 21 second lifespan.  That's a steady state of about 12, and each drone will be able to fire 5 times during its lifespan.  Each shot is 14,400 damage, but Bomber drones have the Ultra-Heavy multiplier (as well as Structural, Heavy, and the coveted Command-Grade), giving each drone a 52,000 DPS.  With 12 drones, that's about 620,000 DPS.
In addition, Bomber Drones can mess up the targetting priorities of your enemies (same as the Neinzul Enclave drones) which is sometimes useful.  Against the RS, you want the DPS instead, so you'll be using your Shadow Shield to protect yourself, your drones, and your allies (and the stations).


Small modules... well, Flak and Translocator are useless in nebulas, unfortunately, along with Acid Sprayer, Nanosubverter, Insanity Inducer, and (usually) Paralyzer.  None of the small modules have Ultra-Heavy multipliers, so you're stuck with the base Damage for normal modules.  Against the RS, the highest base damage normal module is the Paralyzer, at 17,000 DPS per mark.  Unfortunately, you don't have it.
So, the special modules:  Polarizer, Impulse Reaction Emitter, and Doom Accelerator.
Absolute best small module is Polarizer - RS has 1,000,000 armor, so the Polarizer gets the maximum 100x multiplier to base damage, 55,000 DPS per mark, for a whopping 165,000 DPS at Mk III, all Aromor Piercing.
The Doom Accelerator is as complicated as usual, doing between 5,200 and 46,800 DPS per mark.  Best thing to do for planning is use the average estimated over the target's entire lifespan, 50%, as the multiplier.  That gives the DA 26,000 DPS per mark, or 78,000 DPS at Mk III, again, Armor Piercing.
Last is IRE, where the huge Energy usage of the RS also gives max multiplier of x30, or 30,000 DPS per mark, for 90,000 DPS at Mk III, but not Armor Piercing.

But since you don't have any of those modules, you're stuck with Needlers (7,200 DPS per mark, 21,600 DPS at Mk III) as your best small module.

Assuming 1 shield, 2 Missile IIIs, and 12 Needler IIIs (plus the Human Champion's main gun) you'll be getting:
300,000 (main gun) + 2 * 450,000 (missiles) + 12 * 21,600 (needlers) = 1,459,200 DPS.  You can up this to 1.9 million DPS by sacrificing the Shield module for another Missile, but that's a little risky.  Not a bad idea (Shield III is only 11 million HP - half of a Shadow Shield), though.  Total is about 300,000 DPS after armor is applied.

With 3 Bomber Bays and 12 polarizers, you're looking at 300,000 + 3 * 620,000 + 12 * 165,000 = 300,000 + 1,240,000 + 1,980,000 = 4,140,000 DPS.
As you can see, the Polarizers alone out-damage your best possible DPS with normal small modules AND all the Polarizer damage is Armor Piercing.  Total 2.3M after armor.

Photon Lances are actually not a very good choice here.  First, the RS moves a LOT during the first half of the scenario, so you'll spend a lot of time missing.  Second, they average about 75,000 DPS per mark - about half of an equal mark Missile module.


And as all the comparisons above show, this is a scenario where your equipment choices are paramount, and make all the difference between almost-easy and nearly-impossible.


As for the Malfunctioning Gatlings Nebula, I think it's in a good place. I had a game where it was my first nebula, and I beat it just fine.
Mass Photon Lance also works for the RS (then again, if you have enough of those they work for any nebula really), but the grey spire malfunctioning gatlings one? I've rarely had trouble with it, and a good amount of the time its my first nebula. All laser and shield modules, and placing shields over the allies does pretty well. Doesn't always keep the forward base intact, but I've never lost that one. Certainly have lost to the RS more than once however.
Before entering any nebula, I kill Guardposts to get to level 4, and unlock Shield II and Missile II.  This is just about ideal against most Starbase-killing scenarios, but is terrible against the Gatlings (Heavy hulled).  Only Laser and Plasma Siege modules get an anti-Heavy multiplier, and I don't unlock/upgrade them that early.  Also, it requires some heavy micro to keep you and your allies alive - I usually have to retreat to get repaired at least one when this is the first scenario.  When it's the second, and I haven't unlocked bomber bays (or some other drone bay), I rarely win it.

I find that the Bomber Bays are the best, because the combination of Bomber Drones getting anti-Heavy multipliers and the Gatlings getting confused with targetting allows you and your allies to take a lot less damage while dealing out a lot more.  Other drone types work for the targetting confusion part, although the damage is much less.  Slicers actually do OK here, since the Gatlings frequently stop moving, allowing the melee to actually execute the full 1 attack per second.

But I hate getting the Gatlings on Nebula #2 or #5, since the number of Gatlings keeps going up, but you aren't *quite* to your next major power-up yet.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2014, 07:10:18 pm »
I'm pretty sure the only difference in gatling density is how quickly you kill them. iirc its a fixed time event, with reward based on how many you kill in the time. One of my favorite events to get early because of the sheer fleet strength of dyson gatlings early in the game. (hey remember when you used to be able to steal these from the Dyson himself?  >:( )

On ship design, I tend to prefer zenith for the RS event. Zenith ship has more heavy hardpoints, and is generally more reliable (can always have access to missiles, but you might not get bombers or something more preferable) It *usually* works? I kinda wish there was a bit more counterplay in the RS event, instead if it wants to kill your ship its both faster and longer ranged :\ Basically nothing you can do other than hit attack and go blow stuff up with your fleet.

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Offline Bognor

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2014, 09:26:01 pm »
With 3 Bomber Bays and 12 polarizers, you're looking at 300,000 + 3 * 620,000 + 12 * 165,000 = 300,000 + 1,240,000 + 1,980,000 = 4,140,000 DPS.
As you can see, the Polarizers alone out-damage your best possible DPS with normal small modules AND all the Polarizer damage is Armor Piercing.  Total 2.3M after armor.
Unless I made a mistake on the wiki (entirely possible), human champions can't mount Polarizers.

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I've lost the Gatlings scenario once out of maybe a dozen attempts, nearly I've nearly always encountered it in a frigate.  I only advance to level 3 before entering nebulae, and spend one point each on shields and lasers.  Lasers' heavy bonus makes them useful in most scenarios, but especially the Gatlings.  Often I don't use that one point after that scenario, but I still consider it a point well spent.  Six Mark II lasers in a human frigate can take down Gatlings pretty quickly, so long as you're prepared to micro to keep your shield from being destroyed.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2014, 09:32:10 pm »
I'm pretty sure the only difference in gatling density is how quickly you kill them. iirc its a fixed time event, with reward based on how many you kill in the time. One of my favorite events to get early because of the sheer fleet strength of dyson gatlings early in the game. (hey remember when you used to be able to steal these from the Dyson himself?  >:( )
Gatling density goes up in time, peaking in spawn count right before the 8:00 minute mark, where they suddenly stop.  The spawn rate and final count also goes up based on the number of nebula completed and the number of Champions.
If you've ever does this scenario as a duplicate (post-Battleship) with 8 Champions, you can see almost 400 active at once.
I think the reward is always constant:  1 module and 25 player gatlings.  Of course, you also get tons of experience for killing all those Gatlings - I usually get 10+ levels.

Unless I made a mistake on the wiki (entirely possible), human champions can't mount Polarizers.
No, you are correct - Zenith hull with polarizers is what I was thinking for what I usually do, I just did the comparison for the Human hull, because I forgot.

On ship design, I tend to prefer zenith for the RS event. Zenith ship has more heavy hardpoints, and is generally more reliable (can always have access to missiles, but you might not get bombers or something more preferable) It *usually* works? I kinda wish there was a bit more counterplay in the RS event, instead if it wants to kill your ship its both faster and longer ranged :\ Basically nothing you can do other than hit attack and go blow stuff up with your fleet.
Agreed.  As soon as I get it, I switch to the Zenith hull for the length of the nebula scenarios.  More Large hardpoints that can hold missiles makes all the difference in the nebulas.  The Spire hull has more Large hardpoints, but Plasma Siege is nowhere near as good as Missiles for killing starbases.
Once outside of the nebula (with the Battleship hull) I like to use mix of Zenith and Spire hulls/modules.  Zenith gets Missiles, Heat Beams, Polarizers, and Flak modules.  Spire gets Photon Lances and Polarizers.  Spire rock at killing starships, Guardians, guardposts, force fields, and other tough single things.  Zenith is for killing masses of fleetships, with Mk V Heatbeam and Mk V Flak wiping hundreds of ships in just a few seconds.  Assuming I have enough XP, of course.


Offline Aklyon

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2014, 10:10:04 pm »
I've never actually used the champion missile module.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2014, 10:35:56 pm »
Gatling density goes up in time, peaking in spawn count right before the 8:00 minute mark, where they suddenly stop.  The spawn rate and final count also goes up based on the number of nebula completed and the number of Champions.
If you've ever does this scenario as a duplicate (post-Battleship) with 8 Champions, you can see almost 400 active at once.
I think the reward is always constant:  1 module and 25 player gatlings.  Of course, you also get tons of experience for killing all those Gatlings - I usually get 10+ levels.
Nope. Reward for no nebula is truely constant. XP varies by time to complete, or in dyson's case, total dysons killed. Dyson is also special, it gets a differing amount of gatlings for killing many or few of them. I am not sure how the reward (or nebulas themselves) scale with multiple champions, as I tend to be pretty purist 1 champ/hw only, and of late the people I usually multi with arent interested

Agreed.  As soon as I get it, I switch to the Zenith hull for the length of the nebula scenarios.  More Large hardpoints that can hold missiles makes all the difference in the nebulas.  The Spire hull has more Large hardpoints, but Plasma Siege is nowhere near as good as Missiles for killing starbases.
Once outside of the nebula (with the Battleship hull) I like to use mix of Zenith and Spire hulls/modules.  Zenith gets Missiles, Heat Beams, Polarizers, and Flak modules.  Spire gets Photon Lances and Polarizers.  Spire rock at killing starships, Guardians, guardposts, force fields, and other tough single things.  Zenith is for killing masses of fleetships, with Mk V Heatbeam and Mk V Flak wiping hundreds of ships in just a few seconds.  Assuming I have enough XP, of course.
I tend to not really use zenith ship much. It's weird symmetry bothers me, but in reality its one of the better ones. I do really like the spire ship with full plasma guns, I believe it has a edge over the zenith with missiles due to the high hp enemy 'heavy' hulls in nebulas. Spire ship with spire lances is absolutely hilarious at pretty much everything, but the amount of ships that dont stand still for it to destroy makes me sad. It can truely make giant holes in fleet ships.. sometimes.

Also the stark white is beautiful, though I miss the old hot pink spire ships...
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2014, 10:48:05 pm »
...hot pink spire? I can think of why they would be that color, but it still sounds hilarious.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2014, 11:08:43 pm »
Old munitions boosting used to tint the ships pink. Turns out the munitions boosting color got removed shortly after I posted pictures of hot pink spire ships.. (iirc with the same official update as LotS, so it wasnt technically live at any point)

Mind, this was rather early in LotS development as well.
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Offline Toranth

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2014, 11:27:23 pm »
Gatling density goes up in time, peaking in spawn count right before the 8:00 minute mark, where they suddenly stop.  The spawn rate and final count also goes up based on the number of nebula completed and the number of Champions.
If you've ever does this scenario as a duplicate (post-Battleship) with 8 Champions, you can see almost 400 active at once.
I think the reward is always constant:  1 module and 25 player gatlings.  Of course, you also get tons of experience for killing all those Gatlings - I usually get 10+ levels.
Nope. Reward for no nebula is truely constant. XP varies by time to complete, or in dyson's case, total dysons killed. Dyson is also special, it gets a differing amount of gatlings for killing many or few of them. I am not sure how the reward (or nebulas themselves) scale with multiple champions, as I tend to be pretty purist 1 champ/hw only, and of late the people I usually multi with arent interested
The XP reward is mostly time-to-complete, but the more important reward, the module unlocks, has other criteria.  Frequently it's ally starbases surviving, but can be different.  For example, the with Mourners it's based on max number of simultaneous active groups (aka, number if simultaneous prison pops).  I think that reward is always the same for the Gatlings, isn't it?


I tend to not really use zenith ship much. It's weird symmetry bothers me, but in reality its one of the better ones. I do really like the spire ship with full plasma guns, I believe it has a edge over the zenith with missiles due to the high hp enemy 'heavy' hulls in nebulas. Spire ship with spire lances is absolutely hilarious at pretty much everything, but the amount of ships that dont stand still for it to destroy makes me sad. It can truely make giant holes in fleet ships.. sometimes.
I've tried Plasmas, and while they're good against some things, like the Heavy ships, they aren't nearly as good as missiles against the stuff you really need damage against - the enemy Starbases.  They also aren't very good against non-Heavy ships (a byproduct of the 10x multiplier).  There aren't usually that many ships in one spot to make the splash damage that useful, and there are no nebula forcefields.  Combined with low range and slow fire rate, these disadvantages put missiles clearly on top in my mind.
I usually end up going a Spire hull with Lances for pure damage, though, in the endgame.  The ability to dump 20,000,000 damage onto something in just 2 seconds is awesome.


I've never actually used the champion missile module.
:(
They have excellent range, very good firepower, good fire rate, and you always start with them.  All in all, IMO, one of the top Champion modules.

Offline Histidine

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2014, 11:36:45 pm »
Also the fact that Plasma Siege module can't target small ships completely screws it over in a lot of situations.

Offline ZaneWolfe

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Re: Ravenous Shadow
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2014, 11:49:00 pm »
so the only modules I had were Bomber (Just how strong are those, anyways?)

As Toranth points out, VERY STRONG. Once you get a Zenith hull the best you can do for practically any nebula is all bombers for your heavy, or all but one as bomber and the last as a single shield. While you rarely get their full DPS due to them being targeted by either starbases or starships, but every shot against a bomber drone is one NOT aimed at either you or your allies. And in the case of the Ravenous Shadow, its also a shot not being aimed at the retreating Nienzul. This makes them both a powerful weapon as well as an semi-effective defense. They are mobile, completely controllable, and powerful enough to cause severe damage to almost anything, increasingly so to something in their very useful set of hull bonuses.