Author Topic: Random bugs/thoughts  (Read 8436 times)

Offline darke

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Random bugs/thoughts
« on: June 25, 2009, 03:29:51 am »
Hi, nice game you've got here. :)

Just a collection of bugs I tripped over and some thoughts and things.

Firstly, nice to see the Tyrian art being used so well. It's a shame that all these old dos games have lovely pixel art that no-one uses anymore. :)

The AI is appropriately annoying at times. After one particular annoyance I decided to scorched-earth the entire 40-planet galaxy I was playing in (against a level 4 easy AI), and discovered the reason this is a Bad Idea. Having a fleet of enemy ships around *each* mineral/crystal deposit about the same size as the one you're throwing at them tends to slow the game down a little. It's also rather boring attacking them, but it's really a "well don't do that then!" thing. :)

Now mostly "bugs" (for reference I play mostly 40 planet maps, and this was on 007K, still playing with the "Easy AI group", and mostly in the range of 5-7 difficulty) :

Advanced Research Station's "selection" circle is smaller then it's actual image, so you can only tell if you've correctly selected it by squinting.

Autobuild of metal/crystal extractors fails when a built object (eg turrent taken over by a parasite) has been built too close to the harvesting point. However you can click to place it manually fine, since it doesn't look like the manual placement tests for the collision radius, but the automatic placement does (possibly part of how you determine if there's something on the point already or not?)

Overly agressive AIs. Possibly a "newbie thing", but I've noticed some of the AIs seem to throw their ships at me at the start far quicker then I can get ships ready to defend myself. Things like 4 or 5 bombers can take my space dock out before I get a chance to produce a proper defense. It might be worth either giving a bit of a grace period at the start so you can take a look around and prepare your defense (maybe have it as a parameter in the game setup?), or a couple of each basic unit type (fighter/bomber/cruiser) to defend yourself.

Start worlds seem a bit unbalanced at times. I tend to like the parasites, so tend to pick whichever world they're on. In combination with that and some of the more agressive AIs, I've found myself on worlds with 6 or 7 connections to them. In the long run it probably means the game might be easier, since you've got a bit more of a central role in the galaxy, but it makes the early game and the long-term defense if your planet considerably harder, and with the "hubs" maps there's no guarantee there's going to be much connected to all these extra planets either. I don't think I've ever managed to survive on a 6 or 7 wormhole start map (but then again, I'm still new at this).

Combining these, an idea might be giving a "bonus" set of ships (one of each fighter/bomber/cruiser) for every wormhole on the map on your start planet. It would give somewhat of an incentive to start on a more connected map since you've got a bit more defense, whilst not really giving much in the way of long term benefits.

Parasites seem somewhat overpowered in defense. Again, possibly a low-ai/newbie thing, but I tend to find that when I setup a wormhole defense which includes a fair number of parasites (maybe about 25%?), and toss an engineer on it, I tend to return later on to find my fleet grows rather then shrinks. On the plus side the AI has cottoned on to the fact that my Engineers are somewhat problematic, and it tries to wipe them out whenever I do an assault on a new planet with them, but it doesn't appear to have caught onto the parasites yet though (this has been mostly AI level 6 though). Can't be sure though since I just have way too many of them. :)


Offline T-Bone Biggins

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2009, 04:24:21 am »
I agree DOS games have beautiful art that is surprisingly good. Look at Fragile Alliance, or Albion. It's amazing what artwork them old developers did with such low resolution, shows how back then skill was used over speed of development. Good 2d beats any 3d any day. About the aggressive AI, there"s a modifier to make them send half or no waves. I suggest you use it, or do like me, I keep everything hard that way when I break even with the AI I AM HARD!!!! I like saying that :)

On the start worlds, true there are some that are worthless to me, parasites are a top pick with micro-fighters next to me. Electric shuttles don't do me much good and whatnot. X4000 might implement the "starter sets" when he gets more ship types put into the game, but right now he's focusing on game balance, game mechanics and bug-hunting so new ships will be later. Then the starter sets of ships for each homeworld might become a really feasible idea later on, maybe for the DLC expansion for later on. I actually like that idea, consider yourself a pioneer darke! (Hands Darke imaginary E-Fruit Basket for his idea)

Offline x4000

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2009, 10:13:45 am »
Hi, nice game you've got here. :)

Thanks!  And, welcome to the forums!

Firstly, nice to see the Tyrian art being used so well. It's a shame that all these old dos games have lovely pixel art that no-one uses anymore. :)

Oh yeah, I was thrilled that Daniel Cook released his art from Tyrian (and a few other games that were never released) for free use.  I don't know what I would have done for AI War, otherwise. :)

The AI is appropriately annoying at times. After one particular annoyance I decided to scorched-earth the entire 40-planet galaxy I was playing in (against a level 4 easy AI), and discovered the reason this is a Bad Idea. Having a fleet of enemy ships around *each* mineral/crystal deposit about the same size as the one you're throwing at them tends to slow the game down a little. It's also rather boring attacking them, but it's really a "well don't do that then!" thing. :)

Yeah, it's really not expected that you will want to wipe out all of the little planets and the command posts in an entire map... the AI Progress will probably get high enough that they will murder you before you finish anyway, ha.  That's part of the strategy of the game, is trying to pick good targets.  You might also try "Fast & Dangerous" combat style to speed stuff up, if the pace is too slow for you.  I really prefer that mode, myself, but it's not good for really new players, hence why it's not the default.  There's a little circled "N" button right next to the minimap that lets you toggle it, or you can set it for a new game in the lobby.

Now mostly "bugs" (for reference I play mostly 40 planet maps, and this was on 007K, still playing with the "Easy AI group", and mostly in the range of 5-7 difficulty) :

Cool stuff, thanks for being so wonderfully specific there. That's always a help when looking for bugs. :)

Advanced Research Station's "selection" circle is smaller then it's actual image, so you can only tell if you've correctly selected it by squinting.

Added to my list.

Autobuild of metal/crystal extractors fails when a built object (eg turrent taken over by a parasite) has been built too close to the harvesting point. However you can click to place it manually fine, since it doesn't look like the manual placement tests for the collision radius, but the automatic placement does (possibly part of how you determine if there's something on the point already or not?)

Huh, that's a strange one -- I've added that to my list, and I imagine it won't be too hard for me to ferret it out.  Thanks!

Overly agressive AIs. Possibly a "newbie thing", but I've noticed some of the AIs seem to throw their ships at me at the start far quicker then I can get ships ready to defend myself. Things like 4 or 5 bombers can take my space dock out before I get a chance to produce a proper defense. It might be worth either giving a bit of a grace period at the start so you can take a look around and prepare your defense (maybe have it as a parameter in the game setup?), or a couple of each basic unit type (fighter/bomber/cruiser) to defend yourself.

It really depends on the AI type you are playing against, and some of the smaller maps also seem to be more vicious than the larger ones.  This game was mainly balanced for 80 planets and up, so I'm still kind of looking at how many of the "special forces" ships to have around at the start on the lower AI types.  But, even with four or five bombers, you start with a lot of resources even right at first.  So having turrets up, or even your space dock cranking out ships (a simple mix of fighters, bombers, and cruisers) while you look around wouldn't be a bad idea.  At the difficulty levels you are playing at, those are meant for non-beginners (at least in the RTS sense), so having to deal with something fairly fast is fair game IMO. :)  With the new TBS-Friendly pause, you can easily pause at the start, look around, and issue all the orders you want without the AI sending stuff against you, though.  That might be the ticket, if they are too aggressive right at the start but well-balanced for you later on in...

Start worlds seem a bit unbalanced at times. I tend to like the parasites, so tend to pick whichever world they're on. In combination with that and some of the more agressive AIs, I've found myself on worlds with 6 or 7 connections to them. In the long run it probably means the game might be easier, since you've got a bit more of a central role in the galaxy, but it makes the early game and the long-term defense if your planet considerably harder, and with the "hubs" maps there's no guarantee there's going to be much connected to all these extra planets either. I don't think I've ever managed to survive on a 6 or 7 wormhole start map (but then again, I'm still new at this).

Yep, the start worlds are very much imbalanced on purpose.  If you want the ship of your choice, sometimes that's on a really dangerous world.  I prefer starting worlds with four or fewer hostile wormholes, preferably three.  The more hostile wormholes there are, the more likely you are to get hit with a lot of mess right at the start, too, so that could also factor into the "overly aggressive AIs" from above.  That's more a factor of adjacency than aggression, really.  That's a good incentive to try some other ship types beyond parasites!  If you still want the "reclamator" feature from parasites, there's always the Leech Starship, which is always available (at a knowledge cost).

Having uneven start worlds was something that was an intentional design decision, anyway, because I think it makes for much more interesting maps in the long run.

Combining these, an idea might be giving a "bonus" set of ships (one of each fighter/bomber/cruiser) for every wormhole on the map on your start planet. It would give somewhat of an incentive to start on a more connected map since you've got a bit more defense, whilst not really giving much in the way of long term benefits.

Could be, but I'm not really interested in balancing it out, is the problem. :)  You have a lot of resources right at the start, and if you are on a highly-connected planet then you will just have to quickly use some of those resources to defend yourself.  It's a harder position, but you picked it. ;)

That's the problem I've had with a lot of other RTS games, where even their random maps are so completely balanced and generic that there is very little variance in one game to the next.  Here, the maps are all over the place, so you get 2 billion scenarios that are all actually different, rather than just clones with minor variations.  This would utterly fail in pvp since it would be unfair, but in coop or single player, I think it provides a lot more replay value than our competitors.  But that does mean that some maps are wicked hard, perhaps even impossible in a few cases, whereas others are much easier.  Pick the sort of starting position you want to play, is the best advice I can give there.

Parasites seem somewhat overpowered in defense. Again, possibly a low-ai/newbie thing, but I tend to find that when I setup a wormhole defense which includes a fair number of parasites (maybe about 25%?), and toss an engineer on it, I tend to return later on to find my fleet grows rather then shrinks. On the plus side the AI has cottoned on to the fact that my Engineers are somewhat problematic, and it tries to wipe them out whenever I do an assault on a new planet with them, but it doesn't appear to have caught onto the parasites yet though (this has been mostly AI level 6 though). Can't be sure though since I just have way too many of them. :)

Yeah, parasites may need to be nerfed a little bit at some point.  I'm still kind of experimenting with those.  I think a good short-term fix might be to just make them a lot more expensive in terms of metal/crystal, since they essentially give you free resources in the form of other ships in return.  I've added that to my list to look at, on paper they are balanced (from my simulations) but in practice with certain uses like yours here, they definitely get unbalanced I think.

Thanks for the great suggestions!
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Offline x4000

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2009, 10:17:22 am »
I agree DOS games have beautiful art that is surprisingly good. Look at Fragile Alliance, or Albion. It's amazing what artwork them old developers did with such low resolution, shows how back then skill was used over speed of development. Good 2d beats any 3d any day.

I myself am really a fan of both.  But there is a general dearth of good, modern 2d games out there, so that's what I'm making. :)

On the start worlds, true there are some that are worthless to me, parasites are a top pick with micro-fighters next to me. Electric shuttles don't do me much good and whatnot.

I'm partial to a lot of them, but recently I've been playing with teleport raiders and electric shuttles at the start.  The shuttles, when massed and paired with other ships, can just be so deadly to huge groups of guys.  But there's definitely room for everyone to have their own different preferences, though I think parasites are definitely an overall favorite for people at present. :)
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Offline darke

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2009, 01:02:23 pm »
Now mostly "bugs" (for reference I play mostly 40 planet maps, and this was on 007K, still playing with the "Easy AI group", and mostly in the range of 5-7 difficulty) :

Cool stuff, thanks for being so wonderfully specific there. That's always a help when looking for bugs. :)
Yup, I'm a programmer myself so I do tend to be a little over detailed in some of my bug reports. :) Though I did forget to note that I don't play with astro trains (just because I found them more annoying then interesting), but that probably doesn't affect things. Though I normally give both the AIs and myself +30% to +50% resources bonuses so it probably doesn't help me with my getting-swamped-early problem. :)

Autobuild of metal/crystal extractors fails when a built object (eg turrent taken over by a parasite) has been built too close to the harvesting point. However you can click to place it manually fine, since it doesn't look like the manual placement tests for the collision radius, but the automatic placement does (possibly part of how you determine if there's something on the point already or not?)

Huh, that's a strange one -- I've added that to my list, and I imagine it won't be too hard for me to ferret it out.  Thanks!

I recalled someone else on the forum mentioning a similar problem with the auto-build as well. It's probably a rather rare case, but I really do use swarms of parasites a lot, so it's probably happened a little more often to me then most people. (And even then, I've only noticed it in 3 times out of my, well, lots of games.)

It really depends on the AI type you are playing against, and some of the smaller maps also seem to be more vicious than the larger ones.  This game was mainly balanced for 80 planets and up, so I'm still kind of looking at how many of the "special forces" ships to have around at the start on the lower AI types.  But, even with four or five bombers, you start with a lot of resources even right at first.  So having turrets up, or even your space dock cranking out ships (a simple mix of fighters, bombers, and cruisers) while you look around wouldn't be a bad idea.  At the difficulty levels you are playing at, those are meant for non-beginners (at least in the RTS sense), so having to deal with something fairly fast is fair game IMO. :)  With the new TBS-Friendly pause, you can easily pause at the start, look around, and issue all the orders you want without the AI sending stuff against you, though.  That might be the ticket, if they are too aggressive right at the start but well-balanced for you later on in...

A couple of the encounters were in the order of "queue 5 scout ships; queue 5 cruisers; hit tab to look over the map; tab back see my scout ships done and a cruiser popping out and a bunch of bombers heading for my base", but I suspect it would probably have been only one, maybe 2 bombers if I wasn't giving the AIs +50% resources.

I did just start a few AI 7 games quickly to test things out, and found one of the better solutions seemed to be just tossing up 3 of the short-range turrets and a tractor beam around each wormhole quickly. Having at least one set of them there seemed to get the AI to toss faster fighter-class (usually the "special" classes of fast/shooty ships, often ones that are immune to the tractor beams) at you instead. Either that or if you drop a few crystal/metal harvesters around they'll beeline for that instead. Also found that a mix of parasites and cruisers seemed to be very useful as well, or even just pure parasites right at the start. They seem to work nicely on most of the things they send you and with an engineer nearby a second later and you've got a bunch of nice shiny new ships. :)

I think my reaction to this was because the different AI levels actually play really differently, rather then a gradual curve. Like I think it was the AI 5 to 6 transition where I hadn't had to use the tachyon defensive turrets at all at 5, then suddenly at the next AI level higher I got hit within the first 10 to 15 minutes with raptor ships slipping in to hassle my harvesters. And I think the 6 to 7 one really upped the early game aggression.

That's the problem I've had with a lot of other RTS games, where even their random maps are so completely balanced and generic that there is very little variance in one game to the next.  Here, the maps are all over the place, so you get 2 billion scenarios that are all actually different, rather than just clones with minor variations.  This would utterly fail in pvp since it would be unfair, but in coop or single player, I think it provides a lot more replay value than our competitors.  But that does mean that some maps are wicked hard, perhaps even impossible in a few cases, whereas others are much easier.  Pick the sort of starting position you want to play, is the best advice I can give there.

Thanks, I suspected as such. :)

Parasites seem somewhat overpowered in defense. Again, possibly a low-ai/newbie thing, but I tend to find that when I setup a wormhole defense which includes a fair number of parasites (maybe about 25%?), and toss an engineer on it, I tend to return later on to find my fleet grows rather then shrinks. On the plus side the AI has cottoned on to the fact that my Engineers are somewhat problematic, and it tries to wipe them out whenever I do an assault on a new planet with them, but it doesn't appear to have caught onto the parasites yet though (this has been mostly AI level 6 though). Can't be sure though since I just have way too many of them. :)

Yeah, parasites may need to be nerfed a little bit at some point.  I'm still kind of experimenting with those.  I think a good short-term fix might be to just make them a lot more expensive in terms of metal/crystal, since they essentially give you free resources in the form of other ships in return.  I've added that to my list to look at, on paper they are balanced (from my simulations) but in practice with certain uses like yours here, they definitely get unbalanced I think.

Their benefits vary a great deal, even when I'm playing with them I can get them to either be really useful, or just your average fighter.

I tend to be very non-micro-management, so I like to set things up so they're relatively self sustaining. Thus the defense of tractor beams around the wormholes, then a bunch of assorted turrets, then a mixed bunch of ships, then an engineer to repair them all; so I can just sit back and basically check in on my non-critical worlds once every now and again and make sure things are still ok but otherwise not pay much attention. In this situation the parasites are overpowered, but I found the electric shuttle (of all things) was relatively useless. The parasites would often enough get the last hit in even though the ship was minimally damaged by them, and it would quickly be repaired, but the electric ships seemed to fire as soon as the first ship appeared through the wormhole so they missed all but the first ship (either that or they never really did much damage?).

When I'm actually running around taking over the resource points and killing the emplacement thing on top of them, the parasites are either helpful (and the fighters are worthless), or the parasites are no more useful then the regular fighters. This is simply because I tend to grab my fleet as they come through the wormhole, hit L a couple of times until I have a reasonable bunch of ships I figure can kill one of the points without too many losses, then toss them at it. :) (Force fields, and special forces bases and the like of course I treat somewhat differently, since I want to mainly use bombers/carriers on those.)

If you have the grouping set so they all travel at their own speed, the parasites will normally arrive in firing range about the same time as the bombers/carriers at the back are in firing range, so they tend to finish off quite a lot of the turrets, etc so you get a lot of pretty useless turrets floating around the map, but you do get a few ships at the same time (and of course the fighters get there long before anyone else does, and get completely wiped off the map not even being useful as chaff). If you "group" them all together, everything will come in range of the bombers/carriers long before the parasites/fighters get in range, so they'll usually already be dead, so no parasites are made.

They seem to need to be made less killy, the less of a threat they have against them. Maybe have some sort of degradation of their skills they longer they're sitting at a planet and not doing anything? I'm sure that it would be easy enough to make up fluff about how they need to be in constant analysis of their prey to perform at top ability or something, the more difficult part would be to code it so that they would, for example, have only a 50% chance to "parasite" the ship, for their first couple of shots if they haven't fired in the last 5 or 10 game minutes or something.

On a related note, are the Fighters actually good for anything other then chaff? Lots of the special ships seem to be "fighter with a special ability" kind of ships, and there's no "real" reason I know to stock up on them. You need bombers for force fields, you need cruisers for special forces bases, but there's nothing I know of that "needs" a fighter to take down. Maybe give them an extra bonus to super-fortresses/etc since they're so small that they're much harder for the massive wall-of-weapons to aim and hit, and they get bonuses to damage because they get to "shoot in the exhaust port"? :)

It would give me a reason to actually bother to upgrade them earlier rather then focusing on bombers/carriers/miscellaneous stuff/etc before going "I probably should upgrade the fighters since I've got nothing else I actually want..."

I agree DOS games have beautiful art that is surprisingly good. Look at Fragile Alliance, or Albion. It's amazing what artwork them old developers did with such low resolution, shows how back then skill was used over speed of development. Good 2d beats any 3d any day. About the aggressive AI, there"s a modifier to make them send half or no waves. I suggest you use it, or do like me, I keep everything hard that way when I break even with the AI I AM HARD!!!! I like saying that :)

The waves I can usually cope with, since I'll usually have some defense (and that advanced scanner to show which wormhole they're coming out of) setup by then; assuming that I don't get important bits of infrastructure taken out by roaming bombers, or invisible space planes pecking away at my harvesters distracting me. :)

Offline x4000

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2009, 02:28:00 pm »
Yup, I'm a programmer myself so I do tend to be a little over detailed in some of my bug reports. :)

Well, that's always appreciated!

Though I did forget to note that I don't play with astro trains (just because I found them more annoying then interesting), but that probably doesn't affect things.

Yep, that's why I put the option there to turn them off.  I think they add an interesting strategic element, especially with the newer Counter-Negative-Energy Turrets, but some people find them too annoying.

Though I normally give both the AIs and myself +30% to +50% resources bonuses so it probably doesn't help me with my getting-swamped-early problem. :)

Oh yeah, that will really cause you to get swamped more quickly.

I recalled someone else on the forum mentioning a similar problem with the auto-build as well. It's probably a rather rare case, but I really do use swarms of parasites a lot, so it's probably happened a little more often to me then most people. (And even then, I've only noticed it in 3 times out of my, well, lots of games.)

Yeah, I think Fiskbit mentioned it in terms of when there are two harvest points that are too close together.  Yours was the first mention of it with other nearby ships (turrets, etc) also causing it.

A couple of the encounters were in the order of "queue 5 scout ships; queue 5 cruisers; hit tab to look over the map; tab back see my scout ships done and a cruiser popping out and a bunch of bombers heading for my base", but I suspect it would probably have been only one, maybe 2 bombers if I wasn't giving the AIs +50% resources.

Yep, that, and/or if you had the cruiser out first, along with some turrets near you space dock.  The added resource handicaps will really increase the early game ferocity of the AI, I suspect.

I did just start a few AI 7 games quickly to test things out, and found one of the better solutions seemed to be just tossing up 3 of the short-range turrets and a tractor beam around each wormhole quickly.

Yes, that will really help.  I do that, too.  There is no ideal early-game build pattern, because it all depends on what might be coming in at you, how many wormholes you have, etc, etc.  That's something I really wanted to emphasize in my game, because I was so tired of other games where I commonly would figure out an ideal build path for my civ after a few months of play, and then there were no real decision points for me in the really early game.  Of course, that's just playing against the AI, not other humans, but still.  The goal here was to make players think about their strategy and try new things at every stage of each campaign.

Also found that a mix of parasites and cruisers seemed to be very useful as well, or even just pure parasites right at the start. They seem to work nicely on most of the things they send you and with an engineer nearby a second later and you've got a bunch of nice shiny new ships. :)

Yeah, I'd imagine that would work well.  Parasites have to deal the finishing blow to a ship in order to convert it, so the slow reload speed of cruisers would pair pretty nicely with that.

I think my reaction to this was because the different AI levels actually play really differently, rather then a gradual curve. Like I think it was the AI 5 to 6 transition where I hadn't had to use the tachyon defensive turrets at all at 5, then suddenly at the next AI level higher I got hit within the first 10 to 15 minutes with raptor ships slipping in to hassle my harvesters. And I think the 6 to 7 one really upped the early game aggression.

A lot of that depends on the specific scenario and AI types you are playing with.  Some AI types are more aggressive than others, and also certain maps will lend themselves to doing more aggressive things or not (if they have a lot of ingress points to your planets, they'll use them, etc).  Also there is a lot of emergence in the AI behavior, so depending on what you do or don't do, it might make wildly different decisions from one game to the next.

That makes the AI difficulty very hard to predict, kind of like playing another human player in an online pvp league.  Even if the other player is ranked about like you, their specific style could prove harder or easier to handle, as can the various choices they make.  You don't often see that with AI in games, though, so I can understand how that might be unsettling at times.  I feel like the difficulty progression is fairly linear overall, but the AI does learn a lot of new tactics between 5, 6, and 7, so that does change things a bit also, in addition to the other more unpredictable aspects.  If you were to play (say) 100 games of difficulty 5, and 100 games of difficulty 6, I think the average difficulty of those games would even out to 6 being a slight step above 5, but not a huge one.

Though, the increases in difficulty are geometric, I suppose I should say.  The difference between 1 and 2 is really negligible, but the difference between 9 and 10 is the difference between the blitzkrieg and the apocalypse.  This was just kind of how it worked out, in some ways trying to do difficulty levels with emergent AI is like herding cats, but I think overall it works and is reasonable with each step up.  It's at least on par with other RTS games in that regard, in my opinion (but only because we have so many different levels).

Their benefits vary a great deal, even when I'm playing with them I can get them to either be really useful, or just your average fighter.

Yep, that happens with most ships, not just parasites.  Depending on the unit mix that you have, and that the AI has, traditionally-weak or traditionally-strong ships can become heroes or weaklings, respectively.  So you can't get into too many rote habits between different campaigns (again, that way the players have to always be thinking and evaluating the situation, rather than just falling back on learned patterns, or at least that's the intent).

but the electric ships seemed to fire as soon as the first ship appeared through the wormhole so they missed all but the first ship (either that or they never really did much damage?).

Each electric ship does low damage, but they also hit everything nearby.  Grouping a dozen of them can kill a whole swath of enemy ships, though.  But in this case, you are right that they will blow their first shot on just the first guy coming in, which isn't helpful.  Shuttles do stink at wormhole defense, that's quite true.  Lightning turrets have the same problem.  But if you pair those with tractor beams, the second shot from them can be really devastating to the enemies.

When I'm actually running around taking over the resource points and killing the emplacement thing on top of them, the parasites are either helpful (and the fighters are worthless), or the parasites are no more useful then the regular fighters.

Fighters should be a lot more useful in offensive combat in the full 1.007 release that just came out yesterday.  I'll be interested to hear what people think on that front.

If you have the grouping set so they all travel at their own speed, the parasites will normally arrive in firing range about the same time as the bombers/carriers at the back are in firing range, so they tend to finish off quite a lot of the turrets, etc so you get a lot of pretty useless turrets floating around the map, but you do get a few ships at the same time (and of course the fighters get there long before anyone else does, and get completely wiped off the map not even being useful as chaff). If you "group" them all together, everything will come in range of the bombers/carriers long before the parasites/fighters get in range, so they'll usually already be dead, so no parasites are made.

That all makes sense, and is as I would expect.  You can delete the useless turrets you captured if you don't want them (if they are using up ship cap that you could be using elsewhere).

They seem to need to be made less killy, the less of a threat they have against them. Maybe have some sort of degradation of their skills they longer they're sitting at a planet and not doing anything? I'm sure that it would be easy enough to make up fluff about how they need to be in constant analysis of their prey to perform at top ability or something, the more difficult part would be to code it so that they would, for example, have only a 50% chance to "parasite" the ship, for their first couple of shots if they haven't fired in the last 5 or 10 game minutes or something.

I'm going to start with just making them more expensive, but something like this is an interesting idea, too.

On a related note, are the Fighters actually good for anything other then chaff?

Fighters are strong against basically 1/3 of the ships in the game.  In particular, they are also the best thing to use against enemy starships, or enemy cruisers.  They'll tear right through cruisers in particular.  Their problem in past releases was that they were dying too easily when in the middle of a big fray, but that's been fixed.  They can be deadly against certain targets, though.

You need bombers for force fields, you need cruisers for special forces bases, but there's nothing I know of that "needs" a fighter to take down.

Cruisers will eat bombers alive, and cruisers are relatively ineffective against each other.  So to protect your bombers from enemy cruisers, the best course by far is to have fighters of your own.  And agaisnt starships, fighters will do much better than most of your other ships.

Maybe give them an extra bonus to super-fortresses/etc since they're so small that they're much harder for the massive wall-of-weapons to aim and hit, and they get bonuses to damage because they get to "shoot in the exhaust port"? :)

Hahaha, yes, this is exactly why I gave them bonuses against starships. :)
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Offline Admiral

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2009, 06:49:32 pm »
Yeah, it's really not expected that you will want to wipe out all of the little planets and the command posts in an entire map... the AI Progress will probably get high enough that they will murder you before you finish anyway, ha.  That's part of the strategy of the game, is trying to pick good targets.

Well, my one big game so far is a 40 planet game and I have destroyed every planet I have come across so far. The AI is left on about 10 planets now, about 12 hours in. I can't imagine playing the game any other way - this is my planet and you're being exterminated. I mean, imagine how much easier the Allies would have had it if every time Hitler took over a city he left a few major enemy outposts in it (or Napolean, or Genghiz Khan, etc.). Then again... I have two AIs with just level 3 and 5 or so.

Thanks for telling me I'm doomed!!! :)

Cheers!

Offline yllamana

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2009, 07:03:24 pm »
Quote
...I don't play with astro trains (just because I found them more annoying then interesting)...
Speaking of Astro Trains being annoying, what bothers me about them is their attack sounds a lot like a muffled dog's bark nearby, and hearing it often startles me and makes me think my actual real dog barked at something (my headphones muffle outside sound a lot, so they sound very similar).

That is an actual complaint, by the way, not just funny.  :-\ :)

Offline x4000

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 08:56:24 pm »
Well, my one big game so far is a 40 planet game and I have destroyed every planet I have come across so far. The AI is left on about 10 planets now, about 12 hours in. I can't imagine playing the game any other way - this is my planet and you're being exterminated. I mean, imagine how much easier the Allies would have had it if every time Hitler took over a city he left a few major enemy outposts in it (or Napolean, or Genghiz Khan, etc.). Then again... I have two AIs with just level 3 and 5 or so.

Thanks for telling me I'm doomed!!! :)

Well, on level 3 and 5 you can do it just fine.  And on 40-planet maps you also have a better chance of taking most of the planets.  In a typical 80-planet game, seems like the human allies will typically take around 30 of the planets at most on difficulty 7.  On higher difficulties than that, even fewer planets need to be taken most of the time.  The lower-planet-count maps are a bit more traditional in that you can attack more stuff since the AI Progress doesn't scale up.  Just be real careful of that if you play on larger maps or higher difficulties! :D
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Offline x4000

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2009, 08:57:50 pm »
Speaking of Astro Trains being annoying, what bothers me about them is their attack sounds a lot like a muffled dog's bark nearby, and hearing it often startles me and makes me think my actual real dog barked at something (my headphones muffle outside sound a lot, so they sound very similar).

That is an actual complaint, by the way, not just funny.  :-\ :)

Ha, but it is funny as well as a complaint. :D

Yeah, our composer is working on upgrading a number of the sound effects, since a number of people have complained about them being lower quality than the rest of the production values.  I'll make sure he addresses that, too.  Thanks for the note!
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Offline darke

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2009, 03:48:08 am »
Though I did forget to note that I don't play with astro trains (just because I found them more annoying then interesting), but that probably doesn't affect things.

Yep, that's why I put the option there to turn them off.  I think they add an interesting strategic element, especially with the newer Counter-Negative-Energy Turrets, but some people find them too annoying.

Yeah, I think when I get into the pattern of the game a bit more, it'll be a useful thing to turn on to add a bit more random events, but at the start there's enough things to worry about without having to deal with your turrets/etc being irregularly decimated. :)

Though I normally give both the AIs and myself +30% to +50% resources bonuses so it probably doesn't help me with my getting-swamped-early problem. :)

Oh yeah, that will really cause you to get swamped more quickly.

I use it to try and stop me from turtling so much. I have a tendency of fortifying, then hitting it up to speed+5/10 or something silly so I crank out an over-sized attack force, hitting the next planet, fortifying, then repeat. :) The additional resources just means that I stop waiting so long (my bonus), and the enemy is hitting me harder (their bonus) so I have to worry a little more. I think I might have to crank up that "1 AI bonus per 30 minutes" thing to something like +10 points per 30 minutes to get me to get off the starting blocks a little faster. :) My games "only" last about 8 game hours (at 40 planets) so it seems I'm a little slower then usual (10-12 game hours for a 80-planet game?)

When I'm actually running around taking over the resource points and killing the emplacement thing on top of them, the parasites are either helpful (and the fighters are worthless), or the parasites are no more useful then the regular fighters.

Fighters should be a lot more useful in offensive combat in the full 1.007 release that just came out yesterday.  I'll be interested to hear what people think on that front.

Cool, I shall have to take a look.

On a related note, are the Fighters actually good for anything other then chaff?

Fighters are strong against basically 1/3 of the ships in the game.  In particular, they are also the best thing to use against enemy starships, or enemy cruisers.  They'll tear right through cruisers in particular.  Their problem in past releases was that they were dying too easily when in the middle of a big fray, but that's been fixed.  They can be deadly against certain targets, though.

Ah, that explains things. At the AI levels I'm usually playing I only encounter enemy starships later in the game, usually when I've upgraded most of the stuff I need, and am to the point of upgrading the fighters. And by that time I have such a mass of ships I'm throwing at things, I tend to not know what is doing the most damage. :)

Maybe give them an extra bonus to super-fortresses/etc since they're so small that they're much harder for the massive wall-of-weapons to aim and hit, and they get bonuses to damage because they get to "shoot in the exhaust port"? :)

Hahaha, yes, this is exactly why I gave them bonuses against starships. :)

:)

I think a lot of the things I'm noticing are part of me having played and finished mostly 40 planet maps, I think I've only finished one 60 planet one, and no 80+, despite having started a few of both. I seem to find the larger the map, the less interesting decisions I have early on so I tend to get distracted by other non-AI-War things and never get back to finishing the map.

A few other things I've thought of in relation to the UI, but they're probably a case of "I have a too large monitor" (2560x1600 res) problems:

When I'm mousing around on the galaxy map, I'm looking at where the mouse pointer is, but the description text of the planet is appearing in either the bottom left, or bottom right corners (seemingly at random), so I have to keep looking away from what I'm looking at, to look somewhere else. It would be better if it appeared "at" the mouse pointer, the top-left of the box starting about where the mouse pointer is, so that it's not covering up the planet much. Of course this is going to be a problem when at the lower-right corner planets or something. :)

There's not enough icons in the planet's "tooltip" on the galaxy map, plus the icons there are sort of mixed up. The information in the text itself is really useful, but I think more of it needs to be pulled out so I can just quickly glance at the icons to get a good overall guide to the planet that I really don't get at the moment. I shall try to explain. :)

Currently the set of icons has two different sets of things mixed in. The things that hurt me: ion cannons, force fields, super fortresses, etc; and things that I "want" (or want to destroy): advanced research centers/factories and data centers. It would be better if these were filtered out, either on lines by themselves, or by colour type; red for dangerous, and green for things you want (or I guess blue for things you want would probably be more accessibly for red/green colour blind players; can you tell I work with accessability/UI people at work a lot? :) ). Also a lot more information about "stuff I want" isn't listed there. For example it would be nice if there was one icon per mineral/crystal on the world in the list; and an icon for each power station, or starship construction facility, and other things you AI has you can capture (in some other colour then the "green - I must have it!" colour). And even maybe add the starship icons to the list too, especially for things like the zenith/etc higher end hurting ones.

Essentially this is so I can quickly gauge the value of the planet without having to squint at the tiny little numbers. :) It'll also basically eliminate my need to use the P0-P9 tags, since they always felt to me (playing single player on a smaller-then-usual number of planet maps), they were just a crutch because I wasn't able to re-evaluate the cost/benefit of each planet at a glance. Though I imagine they'll still be useful for long-term goals and multiplayer, or just plain huge maps.

Also at an unrelated and random thought, you might not want to include the .pdb file in your patches, it probably produces much nicer crash reports and the like but it gives a little bit more information then you probably want to give out if you're using C#. :)


Offline darke

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2009, 05:35:51 am »
Today's weird bug:

In 008A, when I send my guys sitting on Planet1 through a wormhole to Planet2 by right-clicking on it, they move to the same position on Planet2, as they were on Planet1. In previous versions they didn't move from the wormhole to Planet1, on Planet2's area.

And now I return to take out a pair of annoying starships that decided to slip through a wormhole and take out my space docks. *grumble*

Offline x4000

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2009, 09:49:26 am »
Yeah, I think when I get into the pattern of the game a bit more, it'll be a useful thing to turn on to add a bit more random events, but at the start there's enough things to worry about without having to deal with your turrets/etc being irregularly decimated. :)

Ha, yeah... understandable! :)

I use it to try and stop me from turtling so much. I have a tendency of fortifying, then hitting it up to speed+5/10 or something silly so I crank out an over-sized attack force, hitting the next planet, fortifying, then repeat. :) The additional resources just means that I stop waiting so long (my bonus), and the enemy is hitting me harder (their bonus) so I have to worry a little more. I think I might have to crank up that "1 AI bonus per 30 minutes" thing to something like +10 points per 30 minutes to get me to get off the starting blocks a little faster. :)

That's a clever way to use the resource handicaps, I had not thought of that!  When you play on the higher difficulties, they will automatically give you some more time pressure, of course.  And the Auto AI Progress would be another great way to do that (the Auto AI Progress will make it progressively harder in the late game, rather than the early game, which is effectively what your resource handicaps are doing).

My games "only" last about 8 game hours (at 40 planets) so it seems I'm a little slower then usual (10-12 game hours for a 80-planet game?)

Well, the 10-12 hours for 80 planet games is on Fast And Dangerous combat style.  And you'll wind up taking around 20-30 planets in that time, so that could be similiar to what you might do on a 40 planet map.  All depends on your playstyle, really.  And I'd say that the 10-12 hours is a minimum speed for the 80 planet maps unless you do a lot of planet hopping.  In the Out Of Eight review, that reviewer was thinking that 80 planet maps would average more around 15 hours, and on the non-Fast & Dangerous I think that would be around right.

Ah, that explains things. At the AI levels I'm usually playing I only encounter enemy starships later in the game, usually when I've upgraded most of the stuff I need, and am to the point of upgrading the fighters. And by that time I have such a mass of ships I'm throwing at things, I tend to not know what is doing the most damage. :)

Yeah, the higher-level AIs often have some starships right on their first planets, and have a better chance of including them in their waves.  So that makes fighters a lot more useful in the early game there.

I think a lot of the things I'm noticing are part of me having played and finished mostly 40 planet maps, I think I've only finished one 60 planet one, and no 80+, despite having started a few of both. I seem to find the larger the map, the less interesting decisions I have early on so I tend to get distracted by other non-AI-War things and never get back to finishing the map.

That's interesting, I find that there are more interesting decisions overall on a larger map, but you're right that the shorter-term goals are less exciting.  Still, for me personally I enjoy the challenge of just trying to secure the hinterland and find some goals with the scouts, etc.  But I'm glad I added the smaller map styles (at release it was only 80-120 planets), since that definitely seems to broaden the appeal for people who like a shorter, more intensely-focused game.

When I'm mousing around on the galaxy map, I'm looking at where the mouse pointer is, but the description text of the planet is appearing in either the bottom left, or bottom right corners (seemingly at random), so I have to keep looking away from what I'm looking at, to look somewhere else. It would be better if it appeared "at" the mouse pointer, the top-left of the box starting about where the mouse pointer is, so that it's not covering up the planet much. Of course this is going to be a problem when at the lower-right corner planets or something. :)

This is a resolution thing, as you suspected.  The tooltip always shows at the bottom left, unless your mouse cursor is over top of the x coordinates of where the tooltip would display (in which case it shows at the bottom left, instead).  This is because, on the smaller default resolutions, it's really needed in order to see everything (it can get tall enough, in multiplayer, to fill the entire 768-px-high of the galaxy map screen.  Having it display at the bottom corners also makes it easy for your eye to "sight" along the bottom of it, as you mouse between many planets.  That was a lot more important before all of the galaxy map display modes were added, but I think it's still a useful feature to a degree.

There's not enough icons in the planet's "tooltip" on the galaxy map, plus the icons there are sort of mixed up. The information in the text itself is really useful, but I think more of it needs to be pulled out so I can just quickly glance at the icons to get a good overall guide to the planet that I really don't get at the moment. I shall try to explain. :)

Currently the set of icons has two different sets of things mixed in. The things that hurt me: ion cannons, force fields, super fortresses, etc; and things that I "want" (or want to destroy): advanced research centers/factories and data centers. It would be better if these were filtered out, either on lines by themselves, or by colour type; red for dangerous, and green for things you want (or I guess blue for things you want would probably be more accessibly for red/green colour blind players; can you tell I work with accessability/UI people at work a lot? :) ). Also a lot more information about "stuff I want" isn't listed there. For example it would be nice if there was one icon per mineral/crystal on the world in the list; and an icon for each power station, or starship construction facility, and other things you AI has you can capture (in some other colour then the "green - I must have it!" colour). And even maybe add the starship icons to the list too, especially for things like the zenith/etc higher end hurting ones.

This was a late add feature that is really just a convenience to prevent you from having to scan the list of ship types for all of the "notable" ships.  It's really just meant to show stuff that is fairly unique to that planet, or that is defensible there.  The color is the color of the enemy who holds it.  With these lists here, I'm really not wanting to do color-coding of target priority, or auto-priority setting (which you didn't ask about, but someone else did, and it's similar), simply because that's too hand-holdy for me.  For things like other ships and starships, I'm not including their icons simply because I want the players to have to have visual confirmation on the planet to see what those are.  The scout's intel summaries are meant to be very high level, not too much a replacement for eyes-on.  For the metal/crystal summaries, those counts are at the bottom, or you can use C or M (or R) on the galaxy map to get those as counts hovering over each planet (much more useful than the intel summary, in general).  I hate saying no to requests, but these are just counter to my intents with the intel summary, and would make analysis a little bit too easy, in my opinion.  I want the scouts to do the aggregtion for the players, but none of the analysis (the "notable icons" are just to make certain parts of the analysis quicker, mainly for quickly determining priority levels of a planet).  Hope that makes sense!

Essentially this is so I can quickly gauge the value of the planet without having to squint at the tiny little numbers. :)

If the numbers and such are too small, you can turn on the "Scale Game On Large Monitors" option in settings.  The quality will drop some (it varies by graphics card and resolution from severe to barely noticeable), but it will make everything much larger.  Something to look at, anyway.

It'll also basically eliminate my need to use the P0-P9 tags, since they always felt to me (playing single player on a smaller-then-usual number of planet maps), they were just a crutch because I wasn't able to re-evaluate the cost/benefit of each planet at a glance. Though I imagine they'll still be useful for long-term goals and multiplayer, or just plain huge maps.

See, and removing the P0-P9 tags is not something I want to encourage, so that's the disconnect. :)  Again, to me that's the result of the player having taken a second or two to do some analysis, and then logging the result.  Having the game do the analysis for the player is just having the game hand-hold the player to a degree I don't like.

Also at an unrelated and random thought, you might not want to include the .pdb file in your patches, it probably produces much nicer crash reports and the like but it gives a little bit more information then you probably want to give out if you're using C#. :)

Yeah, it's for the crash reports.  It's super easy to reverse engineer even dlls without a pdb (I have done it), so I figure it's a loss either way.  If people want to reverse engineer my software, they're breaking the license agreement, but there's nothing I can do to stop them.  So I went for including the pdbs just to make sure I always have the best possible bug reports.  But thanks for the warning! :)
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Offline x4000

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2009, 09:50:13 am »
In 008A, when I send my guys sitting on Planet1 through a wormhole to Planet2 by right-clicking on it, they move to the same position on Planet2, as they were on Planet1. In previous versions they didn't move from the wormhole to Planet1, on Planet2's area.

Excellent catch, thanks for that!  I've fixed that for 1.008B, which I'll release in an hour or two.
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Offline darke

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Re: Random bugs/thoughts
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2009, 11:22:09 am »
I use it to try and stop me from turtling so much. I have a tendency of fortifying, then hitting it up to speed+5/10 or something silly so I crank out an over-sized attack force, hitting the next planet, fortifying, then repeat. :) The additional resources just means that I stop waiting so long (my bonus), and the enemy is hitting me harder (their bonus) so I have to worry a little more. I think I might have to crank up that "1 AI bonus per 30 minutes" thing to something like +10 points per 30 minutes to get me to get off the starting blocks a little faster. :)

That's a clever way to use the resource handicaps, I had not thought of that!  When you play on the higher difficulties, they will automatically give you some more time pressure, of course.  And the Auto AI Progress would be another great way to do that (the Auto AI Progress will make it progressively harder in the late game, rather than the early game, which is effectively what your resource handicaps are doing).

Yup. I'm rather adapt at turning even the "Fast & Deadly" style into "Slow & Turtling". :) Though I managed to emplace myself properly on a x6 starting planet (without even parasites on it!) in an AI 7 this time, so I'm getting somewhere with the annoying starts. Though I must admit I wasn't the least impressed when one of the AIs tossed a scout starship and a light starship at my home planet when I was off attempting to conquer a nearby world. I didn't really notice what the light starship was doing since (due to the bug) it was sitting "underneath" my space dock and I thought I'd made one by accident or something. Of course when the dock exploded and it moved to start shooting at the only other space dock I had, I kinda realised it wasn't all that friendly. :)

I think a lot of the things I'm noticing are part of me having played and finished mostly 40 planet maps, I think I've only finished one 60 planet one, and no 80+, despite having started a few of both. I seem to find the larger the map, the less interesting decisions I have early on so I tend to get distracted by other non-AI-War things and never get back to finishing the map.

That's interesting, I find that there are more interesting decisions overall on a larger map, but you're right that the shorter-term goals are less exciting.  Still, for me personally I enjoy the challenge of just trying to secure the hinterland and find some goals with the scouts, etc.  But I'm glad I added the smaller map styles (at release it was only 80-120 planets), since that definitely seems to broaden the appeal for people who like a shorter, more intensely-focused game.

Yeah, I think I prefer the smaller maps because there's more, umm, "carrots" nearby, usually guarded by big sticks. (Which reminds me there really needs to be a "carrot fighter" bonus craft. :) ) So after sending a bunch of scouts out each arm of your planetary wormholes you usually can immediately find a bigger goal to plan for rather then just "take out all the warp portals of adjacent planets, and leech their research". So on the way to that goal, you're still sending out scouts, etc, gradually finding more interesting targets, repeat.

In the harder AIs, I'm finding lots of those insta-kill turrets and such on nearby planets, so it cuts off a lot of my exploration options, plus in the early game the turrets really are just even more of an excuse to turtle for game-hours and every now and again through a few hundred units at them until you take them out. :) It's only late game where I find defeating them has a bit more tactical interest, (since there's a lot more units per map to get distracted by and so on), and I was avoiding the "kill the enemy control center then build your own" because with the various bugs related to that it felt a wee bit too much like cheating. :)

*lots of UI stuff*
*lots of me nodding*
I want the scouts to do the aggregtion for the players, but none of the analysis (the "notable icons" are just to make certain parts of the analysis quicker, mainly for quickly determining priority levels of a planet).  Hope that makes sense!

I figured as such. I suspect mostly it's just my abnormally high resolution (and abnormally bad eyesight), which is causing more problems for me. :) And indeed it does make sense.

Essentially this is so I can quickly gauge the value of the planet without having to squint at the tiny little numbers. :)

If the numbers and such are too small, you can turn on the "Scale Game On Large Monitors" option in settings.  The quality will drop some (it varies by graphics card and resolution from severe to barely noticeable), but it will make everything much larger.  Something to look at, anyway.

Yeah, I tried that. Only problem is everything becomes massive and chunky. If there was an option to scale the UI, but keep everything else the same size, it would be perfect. :) Though really the only thing that affects me is the tooltip windows on the galaxy map and planet maps, and occasionally the build icons for research/command station/etc, though for these most of the build icons are sufficiently visually different it isn't an issue. Maybe just an option to increase the side of the tooltip font? :)

It'll also basically eliminate my need to use the P0-P9 tags, since they always felt to me (playing single player on a smaller-then-usual number of planet maps), they were just a crutch because I wasn't able to re-evaluate the cost/benefit of each planet at a glance. Though I imagine they'll still be useful for long-term goals and multiplayer, or just plain huge maps.

See, and removing the P0-P9 tags is not something I want to encourage, so that's the disconnect. :)  Again, to me that's the result of the player having taken a second or two to do some analysis, and then logging the result.  Having the game do the analysis for the player is just having the game hand-hold the player to a degree I don't like.

I figured that. :) I wasn't trying to get rid of them (per se), I was just trying to pull the data our of the long string of text into a more obvious form. :) And I keep forgetting the various display options are there on the galaxy map, I really should pay more attention to them at times...

Also at an unrelated and random thought, you might not want to include the .pdb file in your patches, it probably produces much nicer crash reports and the like but it gives a little bit more information then you probably want to give out if you're using C#. :)

Yeah, it's for the crash reports.  It's super easy to reverse engineer even dlls without a pdb (I have done it), so I figure it's a loss either way.  If people want to reverse engineer my software, they're breaking the license agreement, but there's nothing I can do to stop them.  So I went for including the pdbs just to make sure I always have the best possible bug reports.  But thanks for the warning! :)

No problem, just my paranoia showing. :) I've been doing reverse engineering stuff since I was a kid, and I currently work at a university so I'm way too used to encountering java/c#/random-bytecode-language programmers with a few years experience under their belt who have this strange belief that compiling their code into object files actually protects them from people's prying eyes. :)

Of course the irony is that I spend way too much time on online programming forums telling people "there's no point encrypting your program's data files to protect them from people stealing your stuff because they'll just rip the data off the video card, the memory bus, or grab the decryption key out of memory and  manually decrypt/unpack the file anyway". On the plus side, the Limbo of the Lost fiasco is a nice demonstration of this nowdays.

Does make you wonder where the stereotype of the programmer being paranoid and detail orientated, but the artist being relaxed and unconcerned game from when they are completely the opposite most times in protecting their work in this respect. But that's probably getting way to philosophical for a game forum post. :)