Quick Fleet Management & Reinforcement Scheme

[GTD-Carthage]

For those who want to get to the topic title's point, skip the TT paragraph below. TL;DR version also at the very bottom of the post!

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Hello, all! I'm new to AI War and while I'm no stranger to 4X games, I could say 4X it is not generally my mainstay for being an armchair general. To be honest, AI War had caught my interest a long while back but the idea of juggling things like economy, tech, military tactics felt very daunting, despite my having played Sins of a Solar Empire for quite some time with an acquaintance.

The game really sucks... you in. AI War is an amazing game that has the 4X feel I've been looking for - an intelligent opponent that continually tries to outsmart you forcing you to coordinate, adopt new strategies, and make use of every single option that is presented to you. I've only played singleplayer so far and only with a difficulty 6 opponent but I'm very excited to see how the action turns out in multiplayer soon enough. I'm hoping to properly introduce the game to my co-workers.

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After having played the game so far, I must say the overall learning curve and control scheme feels a bit like Transport Tycoon Deluxe. (I play OpenTTD quite a lot.) The amount of interface options and shortcuts have given me a lot of options for controlling my fleets effectively.

However, I do have a few issues and, for all I know, these may just be purely based on my play style.

During the game, I do like keeping my fleets always at full ship cap - reinforcing my fleet's losses is always the first juggle I do as soon as I finish off from a wave of defense or offense. I am rather obsessive-compulsive in keeping my ship numbers up and each individual type carefully distributed into their respective fleets. However, I've found myself doing the following in a repeating, rather unexciting cycle:

- Factories closest to my last area of action have ALL ships and starships set to cycle production but are paused.
- As soon as my fleet returns to home territory or finishes off an AI attack wave, I unpause my production cycle to fill up my slots.
- If a fleet has seen too much action, it likely lost ships of more specific types. If one fleet grouping has more bombers than the other, for example, I'd micromanage keeping them all in balanced strengths by sending more bombers to reinforce fleets lacking them in quantity.
- After collecting the new ships into a the fleet, I restore my fleet grouping (CTRL+#).

Given this moveset I'm following to reinforce my fleets, I've encountered a few problems.
- When on offense, it's actually extremely difficult to maintain command of my ships while juggling factories in another system to produce ships and move them toward the fleet currently in-action. (I should really do beachheading and mobile factories more to fix that, no?)
- When a fleet has suffered too much to the point of destroying its chemistry (all the bombers exploded but all the planes are still around, etc.), it becomes a test of patience to properly distribute different ship types to my different fleets because I'd still like to maintain each fleet having an equal distribution of ship types. (Having just 2 groups to look at is still manageable but I'd actually like to have more groups active on patrol or offense.)
- It's tiring to turn my production facilities on and off and fine-tune production for ships that are missing from specific fleets.
- There are times I actually forget to turn-off a factory and find out my reinforcements are coming from the opposite end of the galaxy. (damn it!)

Given those issues, I'd like to propose a complementary fleet management scheme that lets you do less of the button-pressing and more of the floating piles of metal blowing up other piles of metal. It doesn't need to be a new window or a UI element but I currently have very little idea on how to execute it physically.

I'd like to propose the idea of self-reinforcing fleets. A self-reinforcing fleet memorizes the total ship counts for every ship type it is was initially assigned to. The idea here is that whenever a self-reinforcing fleet loses a ship, the factory closest to the position of that fleet begins to build a new ship and sends it on a direct route to the fleet it is intended to join. I can order a fleet to 'auto-reinforce' resulting in nearby factories to queue up ships on its own as soon as an empty space is available for any nearby self-reinforcing fleet. The factories will continue to build and send more ships for as long as the fleet sustains more losses. I can also turn-off 'auto-reinforce' to stop the ships from being bottlenecked by enemy defenses that properly succesfully pocketted my fleet or intercepted my reinforcement routes.

Given such a scenario, we get the following benefits...
- Less micro-management. No need to regularly check up on the fleet's ship counts to see if it's missing too much of a specific ship type.
- ... And as consequence, no need to rally fleets together just to pick them apart and keep their ship type numbers evened out.
- We can have a simple control for production without having to switch between different planets.
- You can keep observing your offensive fleet's actions while reinforcements enter the planet. Maybe it's just me, but I get scared not looking my fleet for just a second while it's on an AI planet.
- Fleets continually get reinforced even while on defense and when moving between territories without having to build reinforcements somewhere along their route to rally up with.

Given those benefits of course, I do recognize some problems as well...
- It's near impossible to auto-reinforce a fleet you've sent into deep striking. Is there going to be a method to automate planet jumping with transports as well? Probably not.
- It's a shortcut feature that may add more screen clutter (auto-reinforce buttons, toggles for factories that can or cannot auto-reinforce, etc.)
- Not everyone is as compulsive as I am in keeping fleet numbers up and balanced ship type distribution like all the time...
- Mobile factories already provide some level of quick reinforcement.

And that's my thought so far. Apologies for the tl;dr but I hope it's worth the time.

TL;DR version (for the record):
Let's have a button to have fleets get filled up with new ships from factories as soon as they lose them in battle.

[TheOverWhelming]

Sounds pretty nice

There is some functionality when it comes to Space Docks and control groups
If you set a space dock to a certain control group, all units constructed from that spacedock are added to that control group as well
So if you had say, 10 space docks for your 10 control groups you can feasible have each one build stuff for each control group (and build an equal number of units for them if you micromanage your engineers that you use to speed up the process).  That'd help reduce the micromanagement you're experiencing

You can also rally ships to other systems with the previous tip in mind
It'd just be difficult when it comes to deepstriking

[GTD-Carthage]

I hadn't realized (or may have forgotten) such a functionality exists for grouping factories into fleets. That definitely reduces the tedium in managing ships, since I can rally and order them around as soon as they arrive on the system I need them to be - it is still a bit of a pain though attempting to juggle between fleets on different places losing ships at the same time as their factories will end up fighting for the pie (and that there's the case of having to distribute engineers in all the right places). Things get pretty hairy around those times.

[keith.lamothe]

More than once I've mentally gone through models whereby you could designate fleets and their force levels (i.e. control groups with specified counts of each ship type to maintain), that kind of thing.  But ultimately it looks like more of something that's conceptually fun than something that would seriously help play the game as it actually is (as opposed to a naval simulator, which I sometimes wish it was but it isn't).  Kind of like building a launch ramp at the end of your driveway: pleases the inner engineer, but provides relatively little utility to most driving use cases

[GTD-Carthage]

More than once I've mentally gone through models whereby you could designate fleets and their force levels (i.e. control groups with specified counts of each ship type to maintain), that kind of thing.  But ultimately it looks like more of something that's conceptually fun than something that would seriously help play the game as it actually is (as opposed to a naval simulator, which I sometimes wish it was but it isn't).  Kind of like building a launch ramp at the end of your driveway: pleases the inner engineer, but provides relatively little utility to most driving use cases

After adopting a completely new playstyle on a second game involving moving tons of engineers and building docks quickly (actually less tedious than my last playstyle, seriously!), I guess in the end there is really no need to have a system that tracks the ship counts on fleets. I realize I could just rally my transports and divide my forces again if there is ever a need to and that if I am forced to actually split my fleets, then I'm probably doing something wrong. After getting used to having a single but highly mobile fleet, I'm getting setting the pace against a backdrop of constant attacks and pushing through enemy territory.

[keith.lamothe]

After adopting a completely new playstyle on a second game involving moving tons of engineers and building docks quickly (actually less tedious than my last playstyle, seriously!), I guess in the end there is really no need to have a system that tracks the ship counts on fleets. I realize I could just rally my transports and divide my forces again if there is ever a need to and that if I am forced to actually split my fleets, then I'm probably doing something wrong. After getting used to having a single but highly mobile fleet, I'm getting setting the pace against a backdrop of constant attacks and pushing through enemy territory.

Awesome, glad that's working for you   Yea, in AIW the "concentration of force" doctrine is incredibly important during serious offensives.  Potentially you might do a 2-prong if the AI's roving defense fleets (the Special Forces, and sometimes its Threatfleet) are shutting you down but in general even there you'll want to find a way to crush said fleets rather than simply evade them.

On the defense a single-point single-layer chokepoint is also generally quite effective, but with the advent of core turret controllers (and mines + line-place) that can be augmented (sometimes even replaced) by a layer of defense-in-depth planets (most or all designed to degrade rather than stop an AI offensive).

[Vacuity]

Some of your statements make it sound like you're not aware of player-warp gate functionality.  You can find a small selection of Intra-galactic warp gates on the CONST tab of your command stations.  These allow any and all ships built to be automatically warped to their relevant warp gate.  By placing a set at each of your useful "resupply" worlds, you will never be faced with having a situation where "my reinforcements are coming from the opposite end of the galaxy".  It also means that once your economy is up and running you never need to turn off any of your space docks that are set for simply replacing fleet losses.

Simply plan ahead and decide where you want reinforcements to arrive and make sure the relevant warp gates are activated, and the previously used set of warp gates paused.

If you're already aware of these tools, my apologies.

[GTD-Carthage]

While I had been aware of the galactic warpgates for some time, their descriptions mention a 60-second stun penalty for ships that go through them... unfortunately, it feels like such a response time is all too punishing even if I no longer have to keep building docks in different places. (In the end, I'd be building warpgates in different places and then have a stun penalty leading to a bit more work or am I missing something here?)

At the moment, it feels as if just sending MKIII Engineers to the planet that needs my attention and build a space dock + starship builder there is the best way to create quick fleet reinforcements - I also just have a single, super mobile fleet making use of Transports as much as I can. I do have to restore the entire build queue again... but the benefit of having instantaneous reinforcements appearing anywhere is far too great and I've found some unusual strategies based on the idea. I've often found myself building space docks beside opposing wormholes that directly insert newly built units through them. It's either my offensive fleet is inside or...

YAY MKV ZENITH AUTOBOMB MASSACRE!

[Kahuna]

Warpgates are absolutely useless and could as well be removed from the game (even more useless than Advanced Warp Sensors or Harvester Exo-Shields).
Just press K to stop/start production and build new Space Docks/Starship constructors. I also recommend using (Assault) Transport to.. herp a derp.. transport ships from a to b asap.

[Toranth]

Warpgates are absolutely useless and could as well be removed from the game (even more useless than Advanced Warp Sensors or Harvester Exo-Shields).
Just press K to stop/start production and build new Space Docks/Starship constructors. I also recommend using (Assault) Transport to.. herp a derp.. transport ships from a to b asap.

They aren't completely useless:  They are still the best way to get Nebula starships from their production facilities to Human space.
They're also useful early in the game when you haven't unlocked Engineer Mk II yet, and have two production locations far enough apart that transporting units between them is inconvenient (4 or more hops).  With the unlock of Mk II Engineers, they become less useful, and with Mk III useful for Nebula ships only.

[Kahuna]

How does not having Mark II Engineers prevent you from building more space docks? Build more Mark I Engineers.
Also.. it's actually possible to transport ships 6 hops if you have 2 planets 7 hops from each other.

EDIT:

two production locations far enough apart that transporting units between them is inconvenient

um.. are you saying they work like Wormholes/teleports? Can I "send ships trough the warpgate" and they will teleport to the other end? I thought they just spawn ships built from space docks etc.

[Toranth]

How does not having Mark II Engineers prevent you from building more space docks? Build more Mark I Engineers.
Also.. it's actually possible to transport ships 6 hops if you have 2 planets 7 hops from each other.

When you don't have Mk II Engineers, it's hard to have enough total engineers in more than one location.  With Mk IIs you get enough extra productivity that you can begin to spread it out a little.
And how can you do 6 hops?  Each transport hop in a system without supply causes 1/3 attrition, so after 4 hops your transport is dead and you need to move the ships manually for the rest of the way.
Unless you are suggesting sending out additional transports to pick up the ships, and return them?  Yeah, I guess that would pick up another hop.  Seems like a lot of effort, though, when you could just use a Warp Gate and wait 60 seconds.

EDIT:

two production locations far enough apart that transporting units between them is inconvenient

um.. are you saying they work like Wormholes/teleports? Can I "send ships trough the warpgate" and they will teleport to the other end? I thought they just spawn ships built from space docks etc.

Not what I meant.  Simply was suggesting that when you have two places you want to produce ships at that are far enough apart, you can leave your engineers at one location and use a Warp Gate to receive the ships at your other location.  This results in faster production at each site than trying to move engineers around.

[Kahuna]

When you don't have Mk II Engineers, it's hard to have enough total engineers in more than one location.  With Mk IIs you get enough extra productivity that you can begin to spread it out a little.

Ok. Well I have no problems without Mark II Engineers until late mid game.

And how can you do 6 hops?  Each transport hop in a system without supply causes 1/3 attrition, so after 4 hops your transport is dead and you need to move the ships manually for the rest of the way.

Actually 7 hops. With Assault Transports. Transports don't lose health on planets adjacent to friendly planets.. so 7-2=5. Assault Transports can go 5 hops and then they pop. So 5+2 hops thanks to the friendly planets.

Simply was suggesting that when you have two places you want to produce ships at that are far enough apart, you can leave your engineers at one location and use a Warp Gate to receive the ships at your other location.  This results in faster production at each site than trying to move engineers around.

I see. I'll try Warp Gates again but I think I'll keep building more Space Docks.

[TechSY730]

I thought the warp stun delay got decreased?

Also, IIRC, the stun delay is severely reduced if you have supply on the destination planet.

Personally, I use warpgates on distant planets as I like to keep my production consolidated.

Being able to use warp gates on already built ships has been suggested as a potential buff for logistics command centers.

[Vinraith]

Personally, I use warpgates on distant planets as I like to keep my production consolidated.

Ditto. I tend to just produce everything on the homeworld, move production with warp gates, and move already existing ships with assault transports through de-tachyoned corridors on the map.

This raises an interesting point. I see a few people here mentioning engineers mk3. Is that a common unlock? I've always thought of them as "beachheading engineers," I figured outside of that they weren't really justifiable for their knowledge cost.