Author Topic: Questions mk2  (Read 1279 times)

Offline Lancefighter

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Questions mk2
« on: December 11, 2009, 04:06:20 am »
So I just finished up a game(my first ai7 win, actually), and was kinda wondering about the balance between certain units. Specifically, starships.

it seems anti-starship arachnids are fairly useless. Your average raid starship in its nerfed state can take down a dozen probably before you see problems. your average dread (even mk1..) will engage them at range, and unless theres a good swarm of them, the arachnids wont get close.

Your fleet starships... just blow them out of the sky like they are nothing. Perhaps this should be looked at?

Also, I kinda wonder about some turrets. On mk4 and core planets, my starships took one hell of a beating if they got close to the turret clusters at the guard posts, and I could only assume they were taking severe damage from core turrets... Is there a turret designed to shoot down starships? Can there be one?

Then about forcefields - Raid starships are great and all, but lack staying power. If you are trying to take down core forcefields with that.. I assume bomber starships will properly work for this? unfortunately, of course, that would require I take a experimental starship factory thing. (i still think itd be a better idea to place them as a starting special ship, but *shrug*)

Finally, as to actually taking down turrets with starships. dreads and fleet starships seem to do barely any damage, unless I focus fire on a target. Raid starships lack the health to engage a turret cluster...

Eventually, I broke down and teched up bombers to fly with my fleet starships.. and must I say, I learned why they are called 'fleet' lol
5x attack boost on the bombers meant that forcefields dont last very long at all... but bombers are incredibly fragile, and any cruiser that gets within engagement range (a range slightly smaller than prerelease s dread range, but longer than spire starship range) means one dead bomber... and the losses certainly do add up

tl:dr
-arachnids suck. Seriously.
-Fleet starships murder other ships.
-Something is murdering my starships on core worlds... and it isnt arachnids.
-anti-forcefield starship?
-Anti-turret starship?
-omg attack power boosts o.0
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Offline Spikey00

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Re: Questions mk2
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2009, 04:19:44 pm »
I'm somewhat lobsided on this one--Arachnids along with other ships can destroy a few Starships if you're not on the macro-side, but I do agree with you that they aren't effective in smaller numbers.  Perhaps what is needed are Arachnid Turrets and Arachnid Starships to bolster the reactionary force--of course, used in moderation and they should not be anywhere near effective in combating other ships besides Starships.

- Perhaps have Arachnids have one-shots in opposed to multiples, but the attack power should be boosted.  This could mean that even though Starships could destroy them, the initial contact amongst them will deal significant damage without other support aka bait for the shot that should take a while to reload.  

Yes, stacking attack boosts basically can lead to mild to severe [destruction -- edited for language] of the enemy.  (:
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 12:53:55 am by x4000 »
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Offline x4000

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Re: Questions mk2
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2009, 12:53:25 am »
- I've boosted the arachnids a bit in 2.001U, we'll see how they do now.  They were underpowered before by too large a margin, but it's a difficult thing not to make them powerful to the point they are annoying.  We'll see how U does.

- Yes, the fleet starships are intended to be the best line in general.  The Raid line is more about either leeching, or about faster raids with more damage just at the first.  But the spire and zenith are the best starships overall by a large, large margin.

- Core Turrets are bad for starships if I recall.  In general, core ships do more damage and thus take out starships far easier.  Part of what you may be seeing is the core effect of that.

- The Raid Starship is as anti-forcefield as it gets for those.  They are really an ancillary thing (like tanks), anyway, as bombers are intended to be the main way to take down forceifelds.  Bomber Starships are also good, if you find them, but those are even more ancillary.

- I don't have plans for making anti-turret starships, either.  That's something starships are meant to be fairly poor against, in the main.  Yet another disincentive for having pure starship groups rampaging around on their own; they are supposed to need support, except for the briefest of raids.  Like your queen in chess, you can't overextend them without losing them, etc.

- Yep, munitions boosters are a favorite of many.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Questions mk2
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2009, 01:09:57 am »
Yes, I noticed the changes (i am on the forums far too much >.<) and its probably a step in the right direction.

I suppose I will have to start teching up support ships for my fleet before I rush spire starships and all. Problem with most turrets (save lasers and missiles maybe) dont have the range to compete with spire starships, so its usually just when I get close to them (well, I like watching the shells fly...)

Would it be possible to make two types of weapons on a single ship? (semi-unrelated)
I just kinda want to see a ship throwing out short-range beams of some sort and shooting missiles at the same time...
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Offline x4000

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Re: Questions mk2
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2009, 01:38:44 am »
Yes, I noticed the changes (i am on the forums far too much >.<) and its probably a step in the right direction.

I suppose I will have to start teching up support ships for my fleet before I rush spire starships and all. Problem with most turrets (save lasers and missiles maybe) dont have the range to compete with spire starships, so its usually just when I get close to them (well, I like watching the shells fly...)

Well, nothing is ever done, as the landscape is constantly changing and evolving.  So we'll see what happens over time!

Would it be possible to make two types of weapons on a single ship? (semi-unrelated)
I just kinda want to see a ship throwing out short-range beams of some sort and shooting missiles at the same time...

The engine isn't based around that at all, unfortunately, and I don't see any gameplay-related reason to go through the deep surgery to make it happen.  Chess was more my model, where units are discrete entities with a single set of rules governing them.  That's definitely different from a lot of strategy games, but not having toggle options or too much complexity (in areas that are honestly fairly redundant in terms of anything but cool factor, such as multiple shot types on a single ship), helps to keep the detail complexity lower in a game with a metric ton of cumulative complexity.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Questions mk2
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2009, 01:53:48 am »
yea i suppose your right... Typically, multi-weapons are done on larger ships to fend off smaller ships, but the way you have shields set up, it kinda takes care of that already

*shrug* was just a random speculative thought, no need to do any great effort to change the engine

I suppose (random musing alert) the fact that most ships are here is more because you can; At this point your great work is indeed the AI (and by all means a spectacular achievement), the fact that more ships can be added is merely a byproduct of the simplicity of the engine the governs the AI (and to a lesser extent, the player)
From what I understand, the AI uses ships to do tasks they are bonused for - For instance to take down a forcefield, the AI would send bombers. However, if there is a forcefield protecting the target, it seems they would prefer (with non-bombers at least) to engage anything else...



Now, a question; Perma-cloaked units. are they supposed to be emp-able? I lost a mk4 scout because he was too close to emp-immune ships when I lit up an emp. Also I note that wormhole guard posts become visible when you emp them; I can only assume with enough planning you could strip a given planet of wormhole posts, leaving it free to travel through...
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Offline x4000

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Re: Questions mk2
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2009, 10:37:48 am »
yea i suppose your right... Typically, multi-weapons are done on larger ships to fend off smaller ships, but the way you have shields set up, it kinda takes care of that already

*shrug* was just a random speculative thought, no need to do any great effort to change the engine

I suppose (random musing alert) the fact that most ships are here is more because you can; At this point your great work is indeed the AI (and by all means a spectacular achievement), the fact that more ships can be added is merely a byproduct of the simplicity of the engine the governs the AI (and to a lesser extent, the player)
From what I understand, the AI uses ships to do tasks they are bonused for - For instance to take down a forcefield, the AI would send bombers. However, if there is a forcefield protecting the target, it seems they would prefer (with non-bombers at least) to engage anything else...

Well, for an AI to shine it has to have a rich decision space, which means lots of units and mechanics -- that's one of the downfalls of many traditional RTS AIs, is that their game is too narrow for there to be many interesting paths to victory.  In that sort of model, the only way the AI can win is by playing better on one of a few variants on the main strategy.  By contrast, this is not a problem with turn-based games, because the opportunity cost of each move is so high; Civ IV, and especially Chess and Galactic Civilizations II are all known for having AI that is usually far superior (in terms of Chess, far far superior) to that in an RTS context.

Adding more pieces to Chess would be stupid, of course, and would just be a distraction and no benefit to the game whatsoever.  But, with a game like AI War or Empire Earth or Age of Empires, I'd argue that significant new game mechanics brought about through new units are the key to extending the life of those games.  The problem comes when the new units are too similar to existing units, or otherwise don't create new decision points.  So my goal with most new units that I introduce through free DLC or through the expansions has and always well be to keep it a foremost concern to add new mechanics that lead to new situations and new sorts of decisions.  Some units are "just for fun" or because people like a certain style of play and want to see more of it (MicroParasites are a good example of that), but those are more bonus exceptions to the rule than anything else.

I guess my point is that the AI can't continue to do innovative things and surprising you and such if it doesn't have a big enough toolset to do that.  Granted, the base game is large enough that the AI is quite suprising and interesting with that alone, and can last you hundreds of hours at least -- the expansion is just about extending that even further.

Now, a question; Perma-cloaked units. are they supposed to be emp-able? I lost a mk4 scout because he was too close to emp-immune ships when I lit up an emp. Also I note that wormhole guard posts become visible when you emp them; I can only assume with enough planning you could strip a given planet of wormhole posts, leaving it free to travel through...

Wow, that's pretty crazy, I had not realized that.  While that is completely unintentional, it also strikes me as extremely cool.  The bit about being able to reveal wormhole guard posts (and thus destroy them) is particularly cool.  That means that if you need/want to use an emp, you can actually clear those off if desired, which I think is a fair tradeoff (and really, not one that I'd expect players to take if they weren't already planning to blow an EMP there, because of the AI Progress cost).  That was accidental, but it seems cool enough that I'm going to leave it in place for now unless an exploit is found.  Thanks for posting about it, I think a number of people here would probably like to experiment with that!
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