Question: balancing purpose of caps on high-energy defenses?

[Radiant Phoenix]

Well, on the game that ultimately became my second victory, I had this one planet...



I left it under AI control, so the AI would still send reinforcements there, but I took the planets around it, so the AI had to send its threat ships past a spire city either way to get at it. Occasionally, the AI would send threat ships through my planet to the southwest to try to rescue the system. They generally didn't make it. (This was back in 6.009)

You'll note that there is a full fortress there, and a cap of bulletproof fighters (Mk5, because I had a fabricator). They are necessary to maintain control.

(there are two neutral planets on the map; the southern one is the Dyson sphere, the northern one is a planet where I think I accidentally self-destructed the command station and didn't notice for a few hours)

Oh, and apparently I don't have Mini-Forts, "everywhere," because some of my backfield is uncovered.

This is the map where I learned that letting the Botnet golem play with the exo-waves gets the botnet golem killed. It is not as good as 100,000 firepower of normal ships -- 3,000 of the old (6.009) Spire Starship Mk1s (30 FP each) would be far more useful (if it weren't for the fact that they'd consume 30 million energy and thus not only black out my entire empire, but also the empires of the players of the nearest ten or so OTHER GAMES OF AI WAR. 60 million energy and twenty other games after 6.013.)

EDIT: Embedded image. Thanks Diazo.

[Cinth]

RF: Attach the image to your post, then edit your post to include the img (with the tags and all).

contingencyplan: I think the turrets with the planet caps is going to come up again come expansion time.  The only thing I can suggest is to choose a map that you know you can play on.  I choose maps where I can choke 1 or 2 planets early.  Anything more than that, I won't risk it.

Diazo: You and me both, bud, just on opposite ends of the spectrum   Probably why I enjoy your AARs so much. 

[Diazo]

{img}how do I embed an attachment?{/img}

To do the attachment trick, you need to post the message with the image attached, then click on the picture at the end of you posts and copy the ULR from the window back into your post by modifying it.

So

Code: [Select]

[img width=800]http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=12832.0;attach=6981;image[/img]
will get you




Now, on the multiple ingress thing, what about something like this (probably code intensive, sorry Keith):

As an increasing unlock, so costing more and more K, you get a percentage of turrets galaxy wide cap as a per-system cap.

IE: The 100 (technically 98 I know) turrets you have at game start don't ever change, they can be put down anywhere. However, if this is unlocked, they count towards both the galaxy and system turret count.

So no system could have more turrets then it currently does, but unlocking the Mk I level of this upgrade which gave you 10% per system cap would mean you could build 10 turrets in every system even once the 100 turrets are built in a fortress system.

Erm, perhaps explaining it as when this is unlocked you go from 100 galaxy wide turret cap to 90 galaxy wide cap and 10 per system cap. Then a second rank (costing more K of course) takes you to 80 galaxy wide and 20 per system cap.

The point here being to give the player a "multi-ingress" specific unlock(s) that he can spend K on if he chooses.

D.

[Radiant Phoenix]

For FS, I really think I need to be able to deal with exo-waves on every front. This means that at each entrance, I need to be able to either:
* Generate a force concentration that can repel its share of exo-waves, in addition to the threat fleet
OR
* Have a tarpit that will stall the attackers and provide enough of an edge that my fleet can put out the fire before it spreads

I think my proposed Riot-control fortress might do the latter; per-planet turrets might help do the former.


---

More on FS: The first FS game I lost was this one:


Red: Vanilla 7, Blue: Starfleet commander 7

I put the cities on the outlets of the wormholes, not the inlets, so they couldn't stop the AI's advance.

Once I built the galactic capitol, the AI smashed through my feeble attempts at chokepoints and crushed me in its vise. The massive threatfleet may have helped.

The second was this:


Red: Vanilla 7, Blue: Starfleet commander 7

The neutral system to the north is a Superterminal. The rest is places where the AI ultimately kicked me out. That isolated red system is one I eventually nuked. It didn't save me.

The AI just kept hammering me, and my economy never kept up. I could never advance except by popping a CS and slowly killing off the ships that remained.

[keith.lamothe]

Off the top of my head, something like a warhead that reduces the systems firepower to zero for the purposes of the AI deciding to attack so threat comes through to me? Would cost AIP like all warheads. That would give me a way of killing that 400 threat on a planet with 1500 units without freeing any the 1100 units that are currently not threat onto threat.

Hahaha, a "Somebody Else's Problem" field-generator warhead!  Turns the entire system hot pink, so the AI assumes that dealing with the stuff on it is somebody else's problem, and therefore ignores it!  Brilliant. 

But, as much as love warheads, I think this would make better sense as a hack.  Basically you'd "hack your own planet", causing great confusion in the AI's feedback mechanisms and causing it to think that said planet was "Mostly Harmless".  Because it detects hacking there, however, it would also send a hacking-response attack in addition to whatever threat decided it could go through.  Hilarity would most likely ensue, but as long as hacking response wasn't too high and you weren't biting off more than you could chew it would probably work out in your favor.

[Hearteater]

I think my proposed Riot-control fortress might do the latter; per-planet turrets might help do the former.

Another version of the "Riot" Fortress.

[LordSloth]

The thing is, forts are designed for chokepoints and chokepoints are the optimal defensive strategy (arguably required for end-game exo waves) and the fort is really the only thing in our toolkit that is really designed for chokepoints so I don't want to mess with them.

I don't really see Fortresses as designed for chokepoint defenses. They may be ideally suited for that role, but only because of their immense firepower, but most of their other traits are irrelevant. Put them up close as meatshields, lose the radar dampening. Put them out back for ranged support, why bother with that hp? You've got better things to repair with. It's not like they'll agro anything or seal up a wormhole.

On the other hand, I see the intended role of chokepoint defense as going to turrets and mines, although the balance for that role is less ideal than ever due to 90 million health Heavy Bomber Starships, other Starship changes, Carriers, etc. In theory Heavy Beam Turrets could compete in the raw damage category, but when you're facing some of that crazy (good) HP, Turret's immobility and limited range starts to count against them.

I've had previous co-op games provide very satisfactory results to lightning turrets up to mk3 acting as crowd control on a wormhole.

Where I see the intended role of fortresses is a sort of forward operating base, supported by missile turrets, snipers, miniforts. Put down in AI territory, you get full use out of the HP, repair, regen, range, dampening, and agro, not just the firepower of the thing. It's a beautiful tool to support an early MKIV ARS hack, securing the center of one of the X's on an X map that you cannot take and you KNOW that patrols will pass through while you're operating in another wing, fighting off zenith bombards, etc.

I'm not proposing any specific changes to forts here, but I'd say I wouldn't mind shifting the focus of chokepoint defense to turrets. Theoretical arbitrary numbers and concepts: add a fourth mark of standard turrets, keep the cost at 5000 K, so... 500/1500/2000. Buff damage output and fire rates where appropriate (lightning turrets?), give player anti-superweapon tools, some sort of turret capable of grinding through 54,000,000 health (MKIV bomber starships are very common system defenders against a Mad Bomber), a sort of Arachnid, and buff Oribital Mass Drivers to at least Arachnid guardpost levels.

I'm currently okay with the current chokepoint balance... but if we were doing a sweeping overhaul of choke, turret, and fort balance? I feel we should aim for a different balance of power. Need to balance the Fallen Spire campaign? Don't shift the duty to forts, shift it to (new, defensive?) spire only buildables. Weight hard golem/spirecraft and exo-galactic strikeforces in the thematic direction, and if the golems given to you aren't sufficient counter, then perhaps they are scaling up too heavily.

On the other hand, if we were going for incremental change (because really, who knows where the balance will be by the time we reach the next expansion and it's totally new ships), well don't fix what (fortresseses) is still working, until it stops working.

[Cinth]

Using the Mini- Fort as a starting point.

10 - 15 M HP  (Fort I has 20M) (Mini has 2M)
40K E
2-2.5K  Knowledge

Riot Control Laser
23 k range  1k damage x 30  6 sec reload

RD 15k range along with the rest of the bonuses and immunities like the Mini-Fort.

I don't think we are going to get much beefier than that and fit this:

Per-planet cap of 1.
K-cost maybe 2x the minifort.
M+C and E maybe 4x the minifort (so 2x cap-vs-cap)
Weapon like the riot's laser cannons (probably without the ED-floor) but with a lot of shots per salvo.  Not likely to kill much, in any event.
A lot of fairly long-range tractor beams.  Possibly even paralyzing tractors (a la the widow golem) but that could be a bit much.

[LordSloth]

Disregarding the name of the Riot fort, I would say increase the cost, give it a very slow reload anti-starship weapon, enough to take down a lone starship before it takes down a shield or two, but not much more.

From my test runs with Mad Bombers and Starship commanders, I really want a micro-free way to handle lone starships threatening my side systems that does not require pulling my fleet or spare starships off duty. MK1s don't currently fit that role with the increased HP on starships and the fact that I'm currently still adjusting to the increased guard post threat and more fleet wipes than I should be getting, due to unfamiliarity.

[Cinth]

That piece wasn't designed or intended to kill anything.  It's a utility piece and has been since the idea was first tossed around. 

All I did was flesh out something based on what Keith posted on page 2.

[TechSY730]

You guys do realize that Mk. I turrets, like Mk. I fleetships, are supposed to stink if used on their own for anything past the early game, right?

I guess part of the problem is that some of the turrets are so weak, that either their Mk. II versions still stink, or that their Mk. II versions grow in ways that aren't really helpful for their role.

[Cinth]

To me it's what the AI throws at you that makes some turrets better than others.  When you need to get rid of big stuff, the turrets that do best against the big stuff shine brighter.  When was the last time you actually needed your MLRS to kill swarmers??

[TechSY730]

To me it's what the AI throws at you that makes some turrets better than others.  When you need to get rid of big stuff, the turrets that do best against the big stuff shine brighter.  When was the last time you actually needed your MLRS to kill swarmers??

When the AI I am fighting in my current game has managed to unlock Z viral shredders, cutlasses, and laser gattlings...
These are actually causing me some trouble, especially when trying to defend my more remote planets...

[Cinth]

To me it's what the AI throws at you that makes some turrets better than others.  When you need to get rid of big stuff, the turrets that do best against the big stuff shine brighter.  When was the last time you actually needed your MLRS to kill swarmers??

When the AI I am fighting in my current game has managed to unlock Z viral shredders, cutlasses, and laser gattlings...
These are actually causing me some trouble, especially when trying to defend my more remote planets...

And here I was thinking I was being smart by plugging swarmers (you remember Faulty's thread) lol. 

[Toranth]

You guys do realize that Mk. I turrets, like Mk. I fleetships, are supposed to stink if used on their own for anything past the early game, right?

Mk II turrets cost as much as Mk II Fleetships, plus there are 8 types of turrets to unlock, vs 4 fleetship types that start at Mk I (assuming 1 HW).
And because turrets aren't mobile, the fleetships or starships are frequently the better chocie for 2500K.