Question: balancing purpose of caps on high-energy defenses?

[Cinth]

Maybe a good time to go with the Riot Fortress.  You know the one, the one everyone hangs out with. 

[keith.lamothe]

Well, do you folks want a per-planet-cap all-up fort?  Would that actually help with distributed defense?  Or would it just cause additional fist-shaking at your depleted energy counter?

Well, when no one. No. One. Can dispute that the chokepoint theory trumps all defensive theories, I feel anything that nerfs this in return to benefit other defenses is inherently not bad.

I don't think chokepointing could be made non-optimal without some pretty crazy changes.  AI EMPs and Nukes and other stuff that hits the "lead" planet really hard, or making waves and such scale massively up when detecting only a single entry point... and even stuff like that just encourages a chokepoint behind a few throwaway human worlds.

So, no, I don't dispute it and I don't think anyone really can unless we make this into a pretty different game.  Generally speaking, making "concentration of force" not optimal in a psuedo-military simulation (using that word loosely) requires some pretty directed rules to that effect.

But making alternatives more attractive is possible, and they generally have the benefit of being applicable in situations where chokepointing is either impossible or so unfeasible as to be non-optimal.

[Cinth]

But making alternatives more attractive is possible, and they generally have the benefit of being applicable in situations where chokepointing is either impossible or so unfeasible as to be non-optimal.

Where good ol' Diazo when you need him?  That is something I'm sure he would weigh in on.

[keith.lamothe]

Maybe a good time to go with the Riot Fortress.  You know the one, the one everyone hangs out with. 

Ok, so:

Per-planet cap of 1.
K-cost maybe 2x the minifort.
M+C and E maybe 4x the minifort (so 2x cap-vs-cap)
Weapon like the riot's laser cannons (probably without the ED-floor) but with a lot of shots per salvo.  Not likely to kill much, in any event.
A lot of fairly long-range tractor beams.  Possibly even paralyzing tractors (a la the widow golem) but that could be a bit much.

Not going the modular route because there's no interface for placing templated types, iirc, and don't want these to need extra attention per unit given the per-planet nature.

[chemical_art]

What I meant, Keith, is that simply saying "things would be harder if we things that benefit from the most efficient defense strategy no longer benefit from this" would cause "fist shaking from a mechanic" well, isn't that the point?

Low AIP games are the most efficient way to beat AI Wars, and making strategic reserves constant to resist this tactic would cause problems to energy (from having to use all offenses, including both fleetships and starships). Does that inherently make that bad? My point was this isn't bad.

So if we make forts planet based in general planet caps, and someone decided to make forts everywhere, why can't they? Why should we fear making the single greatest defense that exploits chokepoints the most problemic for general use precisely because they have a mechanic that is exploitable (energy).

I think we should not. Forts are balanced, in a sense, but their balance skews the best current defensive strategy even more strongly. For long term balance, this is not good.

[keith.lamothe]

Low AIP games are the most efficient way to beat AI Wars, and making strategic reserves constant to resist this tactic would cause problems to energy (from having to use all offenses, including both fleetships and starships). Does that inherently make that bad? My point was this isn't bad.

Said rule change (strategic reserves being constant) is optional, so if a player finds themselves shaking their fist they can just turn it off for the next game.

In general I don't mind nerfing the most effective stuff it's short-circuiting too much of the challenge or just totally dominating such that the altenrative choices are meaningless.  Or if there's a consensus that it should be nerfed.  But in this case I wasn't currently on an anti-chokepoint campaign and so didn't want spend time arguing with folks who don't want their fort caps nerfed

[chemical_art]

But in this case I wasn't currently on an anti-chokepoint campaign and so didn't want spend time arguing with folks who don't want their fort caps nerfed

I understand, but I only wonder: How many of those players don't already use chokepoints?

If you don't use chokepoints, it is almost impossible that you can afford a full cap of even mk I forts to defend one world efficiently.

EDIT: For those players who use them as "threat" control, they wouldn't be nerfed at all. If anything they would benefit. The ONLY group who would be nerfed for making forts in general per planet capped are chokepoint users.


The mechanic proposed is neutral to many, a buff to some, and a nerf only to the currently the most OP mechanic already. Is that a bad thing?

[keith.lamothe]

The mechanic proposed is neutral to many, a buff to some, and a nerf only to the currently the most OP mechanic already. Is that a bad thing?

It depends on how much energy one has left to argue

[Cinth]

Chem: Would you be willing to absolutely destroy someones preferred method of play to get this kind of change in?

[KDR_11k]

I certainly love miniforts because I go for pretty distributed planet captures, I don't have the turret caps to get even baseline defenses up on every planet to prevent it from falling to a few stray fleetships. The miniforts are great for that because of their per-planet cap, I can get some basic defenses on EVERY planet. Also they're nice repair bays when you need those. I just wish they had shorter build times, that's probably the biggest annoyance with losing one of them: They're not pricy but they take minutes to make anyway and since they die so fast they get rebuilt a lot.

Though I have to say I rarely even use MkI forts, especially now that Champs can find free mod forts, fortifying my 2-3 high value planets (Home, FacIV, perhaps something of strategic value) works fine with even their low numbers. Of course that means I have power to spare but it's more the K cost that's keeping me away (one of these days I should get used to hacking stuff, perhaps that could make up for it...).

[chemical_art]

Chem: Would you be willing to absolutely destroy someones preferred method of play to get this kind of change in?

Considering I already did when I asked for static reserves to be static AIP, I feel boxed in 

[Cinth]

Chem: Would you be willing to absolutely destroy someones preferred method of play to get this kind of change in?

Considering I already did when I asked for static reserves to be static AIP, I feel boxed in 

Thing about the reserves though, is that you can drain them off.  They don't kill low AIP play, just make it take longer or make you want another planet or two worth of firepower.

Changing the fort caps to much would kill my ultra crazy high AIP play.

[Hearteater]

I'm against per system caps on Forts.  Choke vs non-Choke really feels like it should be two separate lines of research.  A stack up unlocks above Mini-Forts that got very strong, costing the right amount of K, could give people two options.  Choke Point players wouldn't really want to spend that much K on stuff with a 1-2 effective cap limit (since they only one planet to put them on).

[chemical_art]

Changing the fort caps to much would kill my ultra crazy high AIP play.

Well, for me, high AIP games do the same, except I have to ensure. Have. To Ensure. That my high AIP games have to a chokepoint. Having them per planet helps alleviate the necessity of choke points.

[TechSY730]

If it helps any, I use a multi-chokepoint approach. I try to aim for 2 chokepoints, though I may go for 3 if the map geometry is tricky.

It is worth mentioning that if the map geometry leads to a very natural, very well placed single chokepoint (aka, a planet in a good place that will form a single barrier from AI to my space), I will use it. But I rarely gate raid to get me down to a single chokepoint. I will gate raid to get me down to 2 or 3 chokepoints.