Project Clarity: General Thoughts

[RCIX]

So I don't wanna be creating tons of threads, and thus I'll keep all of my ideas/thoughts on AI War's clarity to this thread.

Question 1 is this: How far can/should I go down this rabbit hole? Right now a person's reaction will, guaranteed, be either "omg so complex! DO NOT WANT" or "omg so complex! AWESOME" . I mean, it's an RTS/4x/sandbox/roguelike (more or less ) hybrid, obviously it's gonna be complex. But how interested are we in making the surface complexity less so you're not slamming face-first into a difficulty cliff (or just an information processing one)?

[Wingflier]

There's some ways to make things a lot clearer, but if you want to keep the game really simple you could start by turning off most the settings and just playing a very basic base AI War game on a lower difficulty.  Because even without all the extra stuff, the game is still fairly complicated.

I'd say aside from that, the most complicated barrier entry for new players is the confusing nature of hulls and hull types.  You've got to start memorizing what every ship does and what it's good against, and that definitely takes some time.  Also learning what all the Guardians and enemy structures do, and how they interact can be time consuming.  I've suggested simplifying this a lot in Mantis:  My suggestion is to make Bombers good against the big, armored stuff, Frigates good against the swarmy, lighter stuff, and Fighters decent at most things, but most people don't seem to like this suggestion.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=9122

Aside from that, I'm not sure what else to do.  We've tweaked the Energy recently and that's been a great change.  Most of the stuff in the game just takes time to learn and understand.  You just have to stick with it.

[RCIX]

Aside from that, I'm not sure what else to do.  We've tweaked the Energy recently and that's been a great change.  Most of the stuff in the game just takes time to learn and understand.  You just have to stick with it.

Which is what needs to be tackled Consider League of Legends: The basic premise and primary means of playing is easily grasped (pick champion, buy stuff, fight), and the twists come from the champions and items that you learn. Or consider a more conventional RTS: there's a bit moreup-front complexity but it's easy to understand find resources > build stuff > club enemy over head with said stuff.

AI War is... Hmm. I know my goal is to kill off the AI Homeworlds, but when do I have the power to do that? Apparently taking too many planets is bad, but what about that shiny distribution node? Or an advanced factory?

I'd say aside from that, the most complicated barrier entry for new players is the confusing nature of hulls and hull types.  You've got to start memorizing what every ship does and what it's good against, and that definitely takes some time.  Also learning what all the Guardians and enemy structures do, and how they interact can be time consuming.  I've suggested simplifying this a lot in Mantis:  My suggestion is to make Bombers good against the big, armored stuff, Frigates good against the swarmy, lighter stuff, and Fighters decent at most things, but most people don't seem to like this suggestion.

Which I'm not opposed to, but near as I can tell there aren't any good "jack of all trades" picks to use while I'm starting. If there are, I didn't notice AI war telling me what any were

[Wingflier]

Which is what needs to be tackled Consider League of Legends: The basic premise and primary means of playing is easily grasped (pick champion, buy stuff, fight), and the twists come from the champions and items that you learn. Or consider a more conventional RTS: there's a bit moreup-front complexity but it's easy to understand find resources > build stuff > club enemy over head with said stuff.

Well, maybe this is the wrong place to have this discussion, but League of Legends sacrifices a lot of depth by being so simplified and user-friendly.

It took the game it came from (DotA) and stripped down the formula to its basics.  It removed many of the most deep and interesting mechanics from the game such as elevation differences, trees, teleports, denying, mana burn, gold loss on death, runes (in the river), magic immunity, and many more things.

Yes, it made the game easier for casual players, but removed a huge amount of skill, depth, and complexity in the process.

When comparing LoL to DotA 2, I liken it to Homeworld 2 and AI War.  Homeworld 2 is much easier to get into, much easier to understand, has more basic mechanics, you can learn most of the important things in like 10 minutes, but in the end, you sacrifice a huge amount of depth and player skill in order to do so.

[RCIX]

Well, maybe this is the wrong place to have this discussion, but League of Legends sacrifices a lot of depth by being so simplified and user-friendly.

It took the game it came from (DotA) and stripped down the formula to its basics.  It removed many of the most deep and interesting mechanics from the game such as elevation differences, trees, teleports, denying, mana burn, gold loss on death, runes (in the river), magic immunity, and many more things.

Yes, it made the game easier for casual players, but removed a huge amount of skill, depth, and complexity in the process.

When comparing LoL to DotA 2, I liken it to Homeworld 2 and AI War.  Homeworld 2 is much easier to get into, much easier to understand, has more basic mechanics, you can learn most of the important things in like 10 minutes, but in the end, you sacrifice a huge amount of depth and player skill in order to do so.

This would definitely be the wrong spot But I could split it into an off-topic thread if people are up for some napalm.

TL;DR of the discussion is it A: only looks easy in comparison to Dota, and B: removed a lot of mechanics that were pubstompy or just didn't make sense (mana burn is a great example).

[Draco18s]

When comparing LoL to DotA 2

Compare DotA to DotA2 sometime.

[RCIX]

When comparing LoL to DotA 2

Compare DotA to DotA2 sometime.

In-progress-ness nonwithstanding, the differences are.... the paint job. And the UI a bit I suppose. It's a mechanic-for-mechanic translation, mainly because Dota fans are fiddly enough to revolt if they didn't.

[Wingflier]

Well, maybe this is the wrong place to have this discussion, but League of Legends sacrifices a lot of depth by being so simplified and user-friendly.

It took the game it came from (DotA) and stripped down the formula to its basics.  It removed many of the most deep and interesting mechanics from the game such as elevation differences, trees, teleports, denying, mana burn, gold loss on death, runes (in the river), magic immunity, and many more things.

Yes, it made the game easier for casual players, but removed a huge amount of skill, depth, and complexity in the process.

When comparing LoL to DotA 2, I liken it to Homeworld 2 and AI War.  Homeworld 2 is much easier to get into, much easier to understand, has more basic mechanics, you can learn most of the important things in like 10 minutes, but in the end, you sacrifice a huge amount of depth and player skill in order to do so.

This would definitely be the wrong spot But I could split it into an off-topic thread if people are up for some napalm.

TL;DR of the discussion is it A: only looks easy in comparison to Dota, and B: removed a lot of mechanics that were pubstompy or just didn't make sense (mana burn is a great example).

No, it IS easy compared to DotA.  And it removed a lot of mechanics that added skill to the game.  I'm not sure how mana burn doesn't make sense.  Mana is like energy in classical Fantasy terms, how does it not make sense that you can remove or even steal your enemy's energy from them?

Basically, LoL dumbed down DotA, made it easier for casuals, then sold it as a competitive game.  We can definitely have a discussion about this in OT, but you can't win because all the evidence is on my side; so you should probably think twice before you open that can of worms. 

If you find AI War too difficult to get into, and think DotA is too complicated, then you're simply a casual gamer.  Not that there's anything wrong with that, but let's call a spade a spade.

[RCIX]

and so it begins...

On topic though: Are there "jack of all trades" bonus ships? Ones that aren't just another tool in a swiss army knife, but ones you can pick and feel safe spamming the heck out of till you get a grasp on what counters what?

I think I'll hit galactic planet tooltips next. A lot could be done there to properly emphasize objectives.

[Oralordos]

I find the Neinzul ship that has polycrystal is a safe spam ship. The polycrystal hull makes it nice even when there are forts around.

[Wingflier]

and so it begins...

On topic though: Are there "jack of all trades" bonus ships? Ones that aren't just another tool in a swiss army knife, but ones you can pick and feel safe spamming the heck out of till you get a grasp on what counters what?

I think I'll hit galactic planet tooltips next. A lot could be done there to properly emphasize objectives.

Starting out with Spire Stealth Battleships, Space Tanks, Electric Bombers, Neinzul Tigers, or Zenith Viral Shredders should have you covered against most threats if you just stay in a fleetball.

Those are all good starting units.

Btw add me on Steam I'm Wingflier, we could play a game together or something.

[Draco18s]

In-progress-ness nonwithstanding, the differences are.... the paint job. And the UI a bit I suppose. It's a mechanic-for-mechanic translation, mainly because Dota fans are fiddly enough to revolt if they didn't.

And people wonder why every AAA game these days are cookie cutter identical.

[keith.lamothe]

In-progress-ness nonwithstanding, the differences are.... the paint job. And the UI a bit I suppose. It's a mechanic-for-mechanic translation, mainly because Dota fans are fiddly enough to revolt if they didn't.

And people wonder why every AAA game these days are cookie cutter identical.

Well, not all fanbases are like the dota one in that regard.  Though resistance to change will be present to some degree.

I think the more driving factor for the sameness of most (not all, depending on threshold of sameness) AAA games out there is the extreme financial risk that goes into a project like that.  Even at our level we barely scraped through Tidalis getting tons of rave reviews but being a financial flop and had a fair scare there when AVWW did awesome on initial financial return but then got used as a toilet paper substitute by the press.  If we'd dropped $10 million dollars on each of those games instead of less than $350k (much less in Tidalis's case)... well, you can imagine that it'd be a matter of concern, particularly if some/all of that money was borrowed (via loan, stockholders, venture capitalists, etc).

Genuine innovation in games is incredibly risky.

All that said, the percent of AAA projects resulting in prompt studio closure nowadays indicates that whatever risk management is going on is often not up to the task.

[Wingflier]

In-progress-ness nonwithstanding, the differences are.... the paint job. And the UI a bit I suppose. It's a mechanic-for-mechanic translation, mainly because Dota fans are fiddly enough to revolt if they didn't.

That's actually a complete misrepresentation of what the transition to the Valve engine adds.

The people who think that a game with the popularity and money making potential DotA had was best suited to stay on the dated and badly supported Warcraft 3 engine, have no idea what they're talking about.

The move to the Source Engine added:

1. Reconnect Feature.
2. Spectator Mode for hundreds of players (planned to be limitless).
3. Tons of new spectator features such as auto-camera.
4. MUCH better netcoding/massive reduction of lag and input delay.
5. Built-in bot support.
6. Ability to make new maps for the same game.
7. Leaver protection.
8. Team matchmaking.
9. Stat tracking.
10. Better chat/friend management.
11. Hacking protection.
12. Much superior graphics/visuals.
13. Built on the Steam engine.
14. Completely free (no need to buy Warcraft 3 first).
15. Community-built skins and items.
- Many more, too many to list here.

The game mechanics didn't need to change, because the mechanics were fine; they've been developed over 10 years.  They really needed an engine switch and an updated interface.  The people who don't understand this have no business sense and/or never played on the Warcraft 3 engine 10 years after it was made. 

[LaughingThesaurus]

^ I wanna throw in a question to add to what you said.
DotA 2 did exactly what was said there-- The mechanics are fine, it just added all those features. As an example, what would you imagine a sequel to AI War to add? Probably not much of anything but a new engine and more convenience, clarity, and maybe even a bona fide spectator feature. I doubt they would end up piling on more and more layers of complexity like with an expansion. It's a move to a new engine and it's fine.