Prerelease/Expans 2.001ZA (2 New Mines, Remains Rebuilder, Cleanup Drone, Perf+)

[I-KP]

Ever since this 'diverted attack' mechanic was introduced for things like the Deflectors and the Decoys it didn't sit well with me on a conceptual level - it just felt wrong and awkward.  In practice it is indeed wrong and awkward.  If it were up to a vote I'd put my tick in getting rid of them entirely if a more elegant mechanic cannot be found.

Liking the extra Mine types though.  My minefields are now a work of art.   

[x4000]

1. The raid starship has a primary role of clearing turrets in preparation for an assault.
2. The raid starship has a secondary role of fleet support, inflicting additional damage, but is trumped by the fleet line in this role because of their superior firepower and munitions boosting ability.

I disagree - the Raid Starships are particularly good at acting alone, and quickly, compared to the fleet starships which are not so good at that.  All of the big stuff that fires at the Raid line has a penalty at this point (since most of that is what has reclamation immunity), which makes it so that the raid starship line can last a lot longer on its own, unsupported.  They also have a significant bonus against force fields and heavy defense items (big weapons, etc), unlike other starships, which makes them ideal for (supported or not) taking out those sorts of high priority targets.  The fleet starships are vastly superior when supported by a fleet, but the raid starships are better than anything else at getting in, killing a high priority target, and getting out.

1. It can also clear turrets, but switches to shell type ammo.
2. It functions far better as a fleet support unit because it inflicts damage, but also (significantly, giving a reason to use these over the fleet line) reclaims some units during battle.

This is conceptually inconsistent because the only purpose they share involves using a, supposedly, different weapon to perform the same task (1). So, my thinking is;

The stats of the leech starship are literally identical to the raid starship, if I recall, except slightly pumped up and with reclamation.  And apparently with shell type ammo to be consistent with the other parasites, but that could be swapped to lasers to be consistent with its line.  It's the exact same ship, just upgraded with reclamation and slightly higher stats -- splitting the lines doesn't make any sense.  The Stealth one is the exact same ship again, just with cloaking and a bit more stats improvements over the leech.

My suggestion is therefore to split the raid starships out from the leech line, and to start a new raid line with different bonuses. I think this is a cleaner solution than trying to reconceptualize the raid starship because reclamation is such a significant ability, and the change in ammo type is conspicuous.

Well, bear in mind that all of the non-homogenous starship lines have really different styles; flagships are upgraded light starships, but then you get zenith starships which are like mini-forts.  Then you get the spire, which is a huge cruiser-type thing.  But each of those two lines do hold the same conceptual niche, in my opinion; the reclamation is a significant upgrade, but that just helps make it better at its job of solo raiding (since it "recruits" support as it goes).  That's my thinking, anyway.

[x4000]

When will the "absorption targeting" behavior be fixed? I wish ships would attack my manual targets instead of ALWAYS being drawn to the ONE laser deflector unit that only has 2,500... it makes my Raider units 100% useless as anything other than a normal fighter. It was my understand that their behavior would be changed due to consensus. In my current game, I've been using Raiders to pull of gate raids, but after I moved past my initial few planets, EVERY system has at least some of these laser deflector units, making raids done by Raiders 100% impossible. The Raiders just attack the laser deflector (causing no damage) until I order them to retreat or they die. They ignore my manual targeting.

This is working appropriately.  It's basically the exact same model of counter-snipers or counter-negative-energy turrets.  Your targeting is working fine, but when you target a ship in the protection radius of the deflector drones, the lasers veer off target and hit the deflectors instead. Solution: use something without lasers when deflector drones are around.

Also, about the mines... I used up basically all my mines protecting my Zenith Power Generator thingy. All the wormholes are in one 45-degree arc from the Z generator, and I put all the mines there in a fan shape... and then I ran out. Also, how can I tell how much damage mines do? The description just says "heavy damage".

I would think mines would be not my first choice for that sort of thing, since some ships have mine avoidance -- basically, tractor beams and turrets, with some mines perhaps to support, will usually handle that more efficiently.  Mines do damage equal to their health at the time they go off.  So, normally that's their full health, but if they've been previously damaged by an astro train or something, then they do less.  Hope that helps!

[x4000]

Also, about the mines... I used up basically all my mines protecting my Zenith Power Generator thingy. All the wormholes are in one 45-degree arc from the Z generator, and I put all the mines there in a fan shape... and then I ran out. Also, how can I tell how much damage mines do? The description just says "heavy damage".

Since you helped me change AI type, I had a massive cross-planet attack, and the security of this system was tested for the first time (Z generator is worth a LOT of mineral/metal per second). The enemy did not breach to the minefield, so I don't know how it will work yet. Also, if you take out all the warp gates, then there is no penalty for holding the Z generator. I imagine Golems suffer from the same issue (capturing one is my next SHORT-term goal ) Anyway, here's the picture:

Oh yeah, that's the idea: if you can find one and kill all the warp gates, then it's penalty free!  But, sometimes that's easier said than done.  Golems are similar, but usually if you take them on offensive raids then that will incur the penalty again.  The Captive Human Settlements are also very similar; finding them in dead ends, or killing all the adjacent warp gates, makes them a pure win.  The tradeoff, of course, being that you got raided more heavily in the meantime, and you incurred some AI Progress in killing those other warp gates that you might not otherwise have targeted.

[x4000]

Ever since this 'diverted attack' mechanic was introduced for things like the Deflectors and the Decoys it didn't sit well with me on a conceptual level - it just felt wrong and awkward.  In practice it is indeed wrong and awkward.  If it were up to a vote I'd put my tick in getting rid of them entirely if a more elegant mechanic cannot be found.

Liking the extra Mine types though.  My minefields are now a work of art.   

Glad you like the new mine types!  See my notes above about how the diverted attack stuff is working.  This is identical to the longstanding effects of counter-snipers and counter-dark-matter turrets already work.  I am completely happy with how this is working with decoy drones, and there's a 0% chance of me changing that -- the diverted attacks do damage the decoy, so it's perfectly balanced and sensible in my mind.

On the flip side, with the deflectors and infiltrators (lasers and dark matter, respectively), the question is if those are unbalanced.  For the deflectors in particular, I feel like those are a sensible mechanic and in keeping with the idea of a deflector shield.  But their other stats may need to be downed some now.  For the infiltrators, they might need to lose their dark matter absorption entirely.  I am not 100% certain that the attraction/absorption is the right way to go with the deflectors and such, but so far I do like it quite a lot.  Having them provide mobile anti-laser coverage seems solid to me, and makes them a lot more unique and interesting of a unit compared to just a longer-ranged laser gatling.

I'm not sure what is awkward about them; you simply need some non-laser-firing stuff in your mix when you go up against them.  Especially if you make them the priority of the non-laser firing stuff, then that's all there is to it.  Your laser ships will automatically try to target enemies that are outside of the protection radius of deflector drones, by the way, so it's not like it adds more micromanagement.  It just changes how the ship mix needs to be when the deflectors are involved.

I'll be interested in what more people think, and if there are any particular horror stories, but so far I feel like they carve out a new conceptual niche that is solid in the realm of sci-fi and that also provide some interesting new gameplay challenges.

[Muzzlehead]

Dude with the number of awesome updates you are releasing all the time, I no longer believe you are human! 

I believe you are AI... and what does it mean when the AI makes the AI... 

I am scared   

[RCIX]

The main thing i'm curious about is this: what's the next prerelease going to be named? ZA? AA? 2.002?

[I-KP]

I'm not sure what is awkward about them.

It's a nice idea, conceptually, but the way it seems to work now doesn't gel all that well.  Lasers can't be lured or confused, it's not like EW is being employed to muddle guided munitions (such as missiles).  Having all shots divert to a Deflector is just... odd.  If I were coming up with some sort of counter-Laser ship type I'd more likely have a small drone that ablates a cloud of tiny reflective particles that simply reduces the amount of damage that the weapon does to anything within its radius by way of accumulative energy reflection (but the shot, what's left of it, still hits the intended target).  The effect is the same but you don't have an awkward-feeling shot redirection mechanic.

I didn't notice that Laser-firing ships will automatically target something outside of a Deflector's radius of effect.  Maybe that's enough. 

[eRe4s3r]

I would like to lobby for a change of how the Zenith ships are assigned to the AI - make it 50 normal ships, and 1 Zenith ship.. or something.. please + Raise cost of all Zenith Ships to compensate. As it is the normal ships are completely outclassed by the Zenith ships, but the AI gets them equally (and sometimes even exclusively, and uses them at will FULLY. From the get-go.

Now i realize i can disable auto-trains (i was bumrushed by booster and 2 revive trains the first 5 minutes + all Zenith Acid Sprayers, Bombardment ships, Beam Frigates, Mirrors and Chameleons) but i think the AI goes way overboard with Zenith ship usage - specifically those ships shouldn't spawn in waves or from SF Posts at all. And they should generally be much rarer early on.

Zenith Ships are much stronger than anything else - And with the current way the AI gets them one basically has to choose Beam Frigates as Unlock and tech em and cruisers straight to tech 2 (+ MK2 turrets)

I think these new changes (New as in, in the Expansion) made basically the entire MK1 range of ships obsolete - there is simply no tactical reason not to go straight for MK2 or even MK3 ships anymore.

[RCIX]

I would like to lobby for a change of how the Zenith ships are assigned to the AI - make it 50 normal ships, and 1 Zenith ship.. or something.. please + Raise cost of all Zenith Ships to compensate. As it is the normal ships are completely outclassed by the Zenith ships, but the AI gets them equally (and sometimes even exclusively, and uses them at will FULLY. From the get-go.

Now i realize i can disable auto-trains (i was bumrushed by booster and 2 revive trains the first 5 minutes + all Zenith Acid Sprayers, Bombardment ships, Beam Frigates, Mirrors and Chameleons) but i think the AI goes way overboard with Zenith ship usage - specifically those ships shouldn't spawn in waves or from SF Posts at all. And they should generally be much rarer early on.

Zenith Ships are much stronger than anything else - And with the current way the AI gets them one basically has to choose Beam Frigates as Unlock and tech em and cruisers straight to tech 2 (+ MK2 turrets)

I think these new changes (New as in, in the Expansion) made basically the entire MK1 range of ships obsolete - there is simply no tactical reason not to go straight for MK2 or even MK3 ships anymore.

Why do i suspect you were playing against a Zenith Descendant AI? though other AIs do use zenith ships a bit heavily i think...

[eRe4s3r]

Maybe ... it was Dif 7.3 though and i forget to disable auto trains.. it was just interesting to see a full Zenith Only wave coming in, literally seconds after the game started.

And while i certainly can handle odd numbers of ships, i can't handle odd numbers of Zenith ships with 2 regen trains and a speed booster. Well yeah, maybe i do suck at this game but even with better balance.. i regard Zenith ships as Tech 2 stuff.. am i the only one?

[Lancefighter]

wreckage and forcefields seems to be a tad messed up - in one case, wreckage seemed to randomly pick shielded or not shielded (when attacked with a raid starship.. Might have a save, but I dont think I got it before the wreckage was made.. )

[x4000]

Dude with the number of awesome updates you are releasing all the time, I no longer believe you are human! 

I believe you are AI... and what does it mean when the AI makes the AI... 

I am scared   

Haha, I'm definitely human, but it's definitely a busy/productive time.  Glad you're enjoying them!

The main thing i'm curious about is this: what's the next prerelease going to be named? ZA? AA? 2.002?

Yep, ZA should be out sometime tomorrow night, most likely.    First time I've had to go past Z.

[x4000]

I'm not sure what is awkward about them.

It's a nice idea, conceptually, but the way it seems to work now doesn't gel all that well.  Lasers can't be lured or confused, it's not like EW is being employed to muddle guided munitions (such as missiles).  Having all shots divert to a Deflector is just... odd.  If I were coming up with some sort of counter-Laser ship type I'd more likely have a small drone that ablates a cloud of tiny reflective particles that simply reduces the amount of damage that the weapon does to anything within its radius by way of accumulative energy reflection (but the shot, what's left of it, still hits the intended target).  The effect is the same but you don't have an awkward-feeling shot redirection mechanic.

I didn't notice that Laser-firing ships will automatically target something outside of a Deflector's radius of effect.  Maybe that's enough. 

Well, I actually do really like the idea of having the deflector drones simply reduce damage instead of drawing them all to themselves.  That is perhaps more thematically consistent, and makes it so that they are not a "hard stop" counter, but more of a drawback.  The decoy drones I still maintain I like the way they are, and they're a moderately rare experimental ship anyway, but for deflector drones I think that simply having them reduce damage in their area is superior to the current model.  Nice idea!

I'm not averse to making changes to things when a better idea is presented, and I'm not too proud to change my mind, but I simply won't do it if I'm not convinced.  Until this suggestion of yours, the current mechanic for deflector drones was the best of what I'd seen -- now I like yours better for a variety of reasons, so we'll go with that one.  Hopefully should quell any remaining reservations with that specific feature, but I suppose we'll see!

[x4000]

I would like to lobby for a change of how the Zenith ships are assigned to the AI - make it 50 normal ships, and 1 Zenith ship.. or something.. please + Raise cost of all Zenith Ships to compensate. As it is the normal ships are completely outclassed by the Zenith ships, but the AI gets them equally (and sometimes even exclusively, and uses them at will FULLY. From the get-go.

Now i realize i can disable auto-trains (i was bumrushed by booster and 2 revive trains the first 5 minutes + all Zenith Acid Sprayers, Bombardment ships, Beam Frigates, Mirrors and Chameleons) but i think the AI goes way overboard with Zenith ship usage - specifically those ships shouldn't spawn in waves or from SF Posts at all. And they should generally be much rarer early on.

Zenith Ships are much stronger than anything else - And with the current way the AI gets them one basically has to choose Beam Frigates as Unlock and tech em and cruisers straight to tech 2 (+ MK2 turrets)

I think these new changes (New as in, in the Expansion) made basically the entire MK1 range of ships obsolete - there is simply no tactical reason not to go straight for MK2 or even MK3 ships anymore.

Please bear in mind that the balance of the new ship classes are simply not finalized, which is really the crux of your issue, I think.  Some of them are too overpowered at the moment, and that's something that I'll be working on over the next good while with the help of everyone here.  The new ships are not given any more or less priority than the base game, it's all one big pool -- so if you're seeing them more, it's either just chance, a Zenith Descendant, or an illusion since they are potentially overpowered and thus the thing you notice the most.

At any rate, I'm definitely not going to make the expansion content more rare compared to the base game content -- people buy the expansion because they want to actually play with the new content, presumably.  The trick is to get it all balanced right, and I've tried to make it well known that the current balance is at best a rough draft.  It's not horribly broken by any stretch for the new ships, but they are inordinately strong in a number of cases.  I figured that was better than starting out with all the expansions ships being too weak.