Arcen Games

Games => AI War Classic => Topic started by: x4000 on August 20, 2010, 09:50:14 PM

Title: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: x4000 on August 20, 2010, 09:50:14 PM
The latest beta is available via the Updates window in version 3.060 or greater of the game.  Just open the game and you can quickly download the prerelease through the updates tab.  If you don't yet have 3.060 or greater, you can download 3.060 here (http://www.arcengames.com/aiwar_buy.php).  This prerelease version is compatible with any vendor's version of the game -- Steam, Impulse, whatever.

Note:  If you have bug reports related to this release, please log them in the bug reports (http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/board,58.0.html) subforum with one bug per topic.  It makes things infinitely easier for us.  Thanks!

Looking for a Patch That Can Be Manually-Installed?
Because of the time involved in creating multiple versions of each patch, we only create manually-installable patches for official versions of the game, not each beta prerelease.  But you can easily create your own manually-installable beta patch!  Please note that current betas can only be successfully applied to version 3.060 (http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,4192.0.html) of the game or later (if you later wish to revert to the official version for any reason, you can download the full raw files from the above link to do so).

To create your own manual beta patch, simply download these two files:
1. Current Beta Director Xml File (http://aiwar.s3.amazonaws.com/updates/Beta/Director.Xml).
2. Current Beta Zip File (http://aiwar.s3.amazonaws.com/updates/Beta/3.1.8.7.zip).

If you try to open that zip file, it will say it's corrupt -- that's okay, it's not really a zip file.  Finally, create a new zip file on your computer, and put both the director and the fake-zip-file inside it.  Call your outer zip file something that starts with Beta and ends with an extension of .zip.  Beta.zip will work just fine, or you can name it after the specific version number if you want to hang onto it.  And that's it!  Now you have your very own manually-installable package of the AI War beta version of your choice, which you can install by simply selecting via your Updates window in the game.  Please note that "Beta" in the filename is case-sensitive.

What's new since 3.184:
(Cumulative release notes since 3.120 are here http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Beta (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Beta))

-------------------

    *  Fixed bug where some minor faction units (like the mining golem) were getting orders from the AI thread that conflicted with their proper behavior. The AI thread now no longer issues orders for those units.

    * Some players were running into cases where tractor beams were not acting for a number of seconds after enemies exited a wormhole due to throttling, so moved tractor-beam target-checking throttle into central throttle logic, made more intelligent about how much load the operations actually involve.

    * Now when a constructor is unable to complete the item at the front of its build queue due to insufficient energy, any engineers assisting it will be properly flagged as failing to assist. Assuming they were not directly ordered to assist that constructor, they will shortly start looking for other building projects they can assist (like, hopefully, a new energy reactor).

    * Fixed crash bug from 3.184 that would happen when a unit holding more than one unit in a tractor beam then died.

    * Fixed bug in 3.184 that was setting all the "counter shooter radius" of all tractor beams, forcefields, gravitational turrets, and cloaking boosters to 0. In some cases these abilities were still working (albeit more slowly) but in others like the grav turrets they were not working at all. This was also preventing these units from drawing their proper area during placement, etc.

What's new since 3.185:
(Cumulative release notes since 3.120 are here http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Beta (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Beta))

-------------------

    *  Previously when placing a construction template with cloaked enemy ships obstructing one of the placements, that placement would be randomly bounced away to some place that did fit. It will now simply not build that placement.

    * Tugs are now much less likely to stop hauling a ship just inside MRS repair range (which can be quite a ways off), and instead get closer to the MRS before releasing the towed ship in order to make the repairees easier to defend.

    * "Mines" have now become "minefields." The following changes now apply to all mines, including regular, EMP, and Area mines.
          o The max health of mines is now 8x higher, as is their regen rate.
          o The metal and crystal costs of mines are now 6x higher.
          o The ship caps on mines are now 4x lower.
          o Minefields are now 16x larger than the older mines used to be (256x256 instead of 64x64).
          o The damage dealt by an individual minefield is now 3x what it was before, and is now shown in the tooltip.
          o Minefields now take 3x longer to build.
    * These changes will affect existing savegames, but human players may still have a large number of mines in play that will suddenly look all overlapped and be way above the ship cap for the player. Once these mines are exploded, they won't rebuild if the player would be over ship cap. It's a bit of an advantage to mine-loving players who upgrade older savegames; the mines can simply be scrapped to counteract this.

    * Individual ships are now only able to hit any minefield once per second. So, for example, if Ship A hits minefield 1, and if it survives that hit, it then has 1 second of immunity to pass by minefields 1, 2, 3, etc. If it moves so slowly that it is still touching minefield 1 after a second has passed (and minefield 1 and Ship A are both still alive), then Ship A will hit minefield 1 again. This would also happen if a ship was tractored or paralyzed on top of a minefield -- it would keep getting hit once per second until either the minefield or the ship was exhausted.
          o This is PER SHIP only. So if Ship A hits minefield 1 and gains immunity, that doesn't matter for Ships B or C, which could also hit minefield 1 on that exact same instant.
          o This also does not apply to area effects. So if Ship A hits minefield 1, and minefield one does area damage or paralysis to Ships B, C, and D, then B, C, and D still can hit minefield 1 or other minefields. In fact, Ship B could collide with minefield one, damaging itself and doing area damage to Ships A, C, and D.

    * Mines are no longer all-or-nothing damage, now that they are minefields. If their damage would overkill the ship that hits them, they now only deal the actual damage that would kill the triggering ship. This in turn reduces the amount of damage taken by the minefield itself, and if there is an area damage effect, it also reduces how much area damage is taken by the other nearby enemy ships.

    * Fixed an occasional crash bug in 3.185 relating to waves being generated.

    * On difficulty 5 and up, the AI will now build nests of sniper turrets every so often (like the spider turret nests, except larger).
          o The random occasional sniper turrets are still seeded as normal, because these have some desirable effects such as "pinging" larger ships every so often in order to prevent their healing, as well as knocking off tachyon-revealed scouts, and similar.
          o These will be seeded into existing savegames.

    * On difficulty 7 and up, the AI will now build occasional gravitational turrets of varying marks. These will be seeded into existing savegames.

    * Only the Mark V AI guard posts are now immune to snipers, EMPs, nuclear explosions, and being insta-killed. Previously, it was Mark IV and up.

    * Wormhole guard posts now have 20 million health instead of 2 billion, which means that they can be killed after being stunned via an EMP, but they take a lot of firepower to do so.

    * Special Forces Guard Posts now have 4 million health instead of 400k. Their attack range has been reduced from 1500 to 1000.

What's new since 3.186:
(Cumulative release notes since 3.120 are here http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Beta (http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Beta))

-------------------

    *  The AI will no longer send homogenous waves of Zenith Paralyzers.

    * (Really) fixed a bug where stuff caught by etherjets and then killed and regenerated by the AI on another planet was being snatched back to the original planet in a totally different position. Now will not be snatched back.

    * Some players were encountering situations where the throttle on control node sweeps (shared with a lot of other stuff) was preventing control nodes from functioning. Split control node logic onto its own throttle so that up to 20 planets will be processed per game second, which should be more than sufficient.

    * Fixed bug where the galaxy-map planet intel overlay would not display the top two rows of icons (if any) for planets that were not owned by the players and did not have enemy ships.

    * Previously, there was a constant rate of engine repair, which meant that ships with high engine health would take a REALLY long time to have their engines repaired. Now the rate of engine repair scales up so that ships with high engine health don't take extra time any longer. The base rate of engine repair has been halved, though.
          o Additionally, the repair speed bonuses of higher-level engineers now also apply to engine repair, whereas before they did not.

    * The various messages that show near the top of the screen (Paused, Game Does Not Have Focus, You Win, etc) can now show more than one of these messages at once (like if you're paused after you've won and/or the game does not have focus).

    * Fixed bug where out-of-supply AI units would display a message intended only for player ships (talking about too far from "your" planets, etc); now has an AI-only message.

    * Fixed a few bugs that would sometimes allow the placement of harvesters on resource points that were still covered by AI guard posts.

    * Core Fabricators, Experimental Fabricators, and Experimental Starship Fabricators are now listed with space docks, starship constructors, etc on the "Space Dock" button at the bottom of the screen.

    * Made engineers, cleanup drones, and rebuilders blind.

    * Fixed bug where only mark I warp-counterattack guard posts were actually launching waves when triggered.

    * Fixed bug where it was possible to see a dyson sphere on the planetary summary sidebar of a planet where you had never had any visibility.

    * Dreadnought I/II/III renamed to Siege Starship I/II/III and given much more distinctive role:
          o Speed from 12 to 8.
          o Shields from 1500 to 200.
          o Base health from 300,000/600,000/900,000 to 1000,00/120,000/140,000.
          o Attack rate from 80/70/60 to 160 for all 3 marks (this means it used to fire once per 4/3.5/3 seconds, and now all fire once per 8 seconds).
          o No longer able to fire on fleet ships (this actually makes its autotargeting behavior much more efficient at its real job).
          o Base attack power from 3200/4800/6400 to 6400/11000/15000.
          o Engine damage per shot from 150/250/350 to 5000/7500/10000.
          o Multiplier against normal forcefields from 1 to 30.
          o Multiplier against starship-based forcefields from 1 to 15.
          o Multiplier against turrets from 1 to 30.
          o Multiplier against heavy defense from 21 to 30 (this includes fortresses, and 1/2 bonus against guard posts and 1/3 against ion cannons).
          o Multiplier against hybrid facilities from 1 to 10.
          o Multiplier against warheads from 0.2 to 1.
          o Removed multipliers against Fighter, Bulletproof-fighter, Microfighter, Zenith Autobombs, Zenith Bombardment, Raider, Teleport Raider, Teleport Battlestation, and Munitions Boosters.
          o Autotargeting now prefers starships (the 30x multiplier against them is still there).
          o Knowledge unlock cost from 2500/4000/6000 to 3000/5000/7000.

    * Hybrid Hive forcefields Mk III and IV strength doubled.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/7 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: x4000 on August 20, 2010, 09:50:23 PM
My narrative explanation: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2010/08/ai-war-prerelease-3188-minefields-siege.html

Copied:

This release was actually done in the form of three releases throughout the day, two of which were made earlier than planned because of transient crash bugs that were found and fixed.

Once again, with this release it's mostly a lot of little things rather than anything sweepingly huge.  We've been really chewing through the bug report forum, which had previously gotten a backlogged with minor issues, and so there are a bunch of those in here.

Particularly of note, however, is one long-requested change, which is that minefields have replaced individual mines.  This makes it far quicker and easier to set up effective minefields, and it makes minefields a bit more effective, too.  And it's easier on the CPU, hey.

Another big fan request lately has been for a revamp of the dreadnought starship line.  We've actually revamped dreadnoughts repeatedly in the last few months, but they keep coming out on the weaker end.  Part of the problem was the name -- these were actually anti-starship/siege starships, which isn't well described by the name dreadnought.  So now we've renamed them to Siege Starships to avoid the confusion.  But we did more than that -- we also really buffed them a lot, and cranked up their knowledge costs, so not only are they renamed, but they've also gotten a serious revamp as players have wanted.

There's a whole litany of other smaller balance tweaks and new AI tweaks in addition to the bugfixes, so make sure and read the whole release notes if you're interested.  Enjoy!
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/7 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 20, 2010, 09:53:55 PM
Let's see what you have in store for us with 2.187... 2.188 it seems.

*Giggling with glee in hope of Dreadnought changes*

--

SEIGE STARSHIP!?  What a lame name!

*Mumbles and complains while skulking away.*
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/7 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: x4000 on August 20, 2010, 10:04:43 PM
Let's see what you have in store for us with 2.187...

*Giggling with glee in hope of Dreadnought changes*

Indeed. ;)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/7 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 20, 2010, 10:09:12 PM
SEIGE STARSHIP!?  What a lame name!
Take that back, or the colony ship gets it! ;)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: x4000 on August 20, 2010, 10:11:32 PM
Dreadnoughts will someday return, but with an entirely different design and function.  And they will be... well, they will be worthy of the name. ;)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: snrub_guy on August 20, 2010, 10:13:15 PM
Like the look of these changes thanks! And Siege Starship fits it well. Be interested to test them out.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Vinraith on August 20, 2010, 10:17:13 PM
Looks fantastic, the siege starship seems very nicely focused and very much like a research branch worth exploring.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 20, 2010, 10:18:07 PM
Looks fantastic, the siege starship seems very nicely focused and very much like a research branch worth exploring.
Particularly if you have trouble with hybrids :)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 20, 2010, 10:18:16 PM
I'll post this on Steam Community once I find out what version this is for!

The recent changes to the Dreadnought Seige Starship will definitely make for more interesting strategies.  Will try them out in opposed to all out unlock for bombers.

(http://a.imageshack.us/img651/8048/touhou128.jpg)

--

YOU CANNOT THREATEN THE COLONY SHIP DOMINION!
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 20, 2010, 10:19:24 PM
I think you have Anime Poisoning ;)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: RCIX on August 20, 2010, 10:19:26 PM
Holy cow, i think that's gonna be useful! I'm glad i unlocked them already :)

Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 20, 2010, 10:20:32 PM
I think you have Anime Poisoning ;)

(http://bbsimg.ngfiles.com/1/15243000/ngbbs4793ebf7219a0.jpg)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Trezamere on August 20, 2010, 10:29:09 PM
Awesome news to see the Dreadnoughts already changed and buffed so quickly, cant wait to try em!
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 20, 2010, 10:31:35 PM
Well, bear in mind that it's not a straight buff, they've just been focused into a particular role that they do really well.  Note, for instance, that they are now glass cannons that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn if that barn is actually moving (thankfully starships are much larger than barns).
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 20, 2010, 10:35:20 PM
Wow, they pretty much 1HKO most turrets.

6 400 * 30 = 192 000 for the first tier alone?


I shall devise an evil plan.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 20, 2010, 10:38:21 PM
Yea, I had started them with a lower turret bonus, and kept bouncing it back and forth.  I'm sure they're at least mildly OP right now, we'll see how it goes :)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: rubikscube on August 20, 2010, 10:44:59 PM
Well since it's siege, it shouldn't be worth for a siege starship to hit turrets either, perhaps other economic buildings?

That being said, how about splitting siege starships to : 1 with large bonus against large buildings such as command stations and force fields but cannot attack fleet ships or turrets, the other 1 with large bonus against turrets only and cannot damage/low damage against fleet ships and large buildings

As for large bonus against fleet ships or starships, that's the job of the rest of the army ;D ( but you can consider adding the starships to the "large building" list)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 20, 2010, 10:57:51 PM
Beautiful diagram as it stands right now:
(http://a.imageshack.us/img819/4087/colonyshipsupreme.jpg)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Sunshine! on August 20, 2010, 11:10:34 PM
wat

(I realize 1 word responses  are generally not acceptable, but I am completely stumped as to what Spikey00 is talking about.)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 20, 2010, 11:12:53 PM
You won't understand it until you realize the brilliance of the old school Colony Ship model; it was truly a glorious artifact of the age.

EDIT:  On a more serious note, seiges starships seem to be a great new addition to a player fleet; I can't believe there wasn't a bonus against regular turrets.

Though, I'm wondering... can the evil forces of both transports and seiges combine?
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 20, 2010, 11:30:50 PM
Though, I'm wondering... can the evil forces of both transports and seiges combine?
Oh yes, the Dread Ride is alive and well ;)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 20, 2010, 11:32:45 PM
In fact, it's so possible to micro unload-fire-load the sieges from and to the transports that we'll probably have to change it so unloading sets the "reload bar" to max, to give some degree of opportunity to the defenders to hurt them.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 20, 2010, 11:35:53 PM
Though, I'm wondering... can the evil forces of both transports and seiges combine?
Oh yes, the Dread Ride is alive and well ;)

This threat to Colony Ships must be dealt with... two atrocious legions combined may pose a moderate hazard...

Would that not contribute to overall OPness in regards to both units?  A ship that moves really slow that can suddenly travel multiple times of that... 

In fact, it's so possible to micro unload-fire-load the sieges from and to the transports that we'll probably have to change it so unloading sets the "reload bar" to max, to give some degree of opportunity to the defenders to hurt them.

Great, there comes that Starcraft/RTS micro.


--

Either way though, both will mean certain destruction for the AI.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Sunshine! on August 20, 2010, 11:53:52 PM
Dread ride?  I'm assuming that means that loading a unit in a transport resets its fire delay, so it becomes a semi-automatic machine gun?
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 21, 2010, 12:01:57 AM
Dread ride?  I'm assuming that means that loading a unit in a transport resets its fire delay, so it becomes a semi-automatic machine gun?

That would be dreadful!

I think there's something wrong with me tonight--I best be off.   ::)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: WarpSprite on August 21, 2010, 12:09:58 AM
ya change to dreads!!! there are soo many people I want to thank for this (pulls out list of names in pocket).

About the whole transporter thing maybe it would be better if you had a separate unload rate for starship class ship such as 1 ever 5s instead of the default for all ships which is 10 a sec a believe.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 21, 2010, 12:27:52 AM
Dread ride?  I'm assuming that means that loading a unit in a transport resets its fire delay, so it becomes a semi-automatic machine gun?
No, at least not to my knowledge; I was referring to the fact that the Siege Starships have a move speed of 8.  Transports have a move speed of alotmorethan8.  Dread, Ride :)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Trezamere on August 21, 2010, 12:29:06 AM
I dont see the turret damage being an issue since it can only fire once every 8 seconds, and if you're firing on turrets you're NOT firing on something more productive.  I see it as something that will help make the sector turret ball cleanup less monotonous not OP.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: snrub_guy on August 21, 2010, 12:35:39 AM
Yes, there are a lot cheaper ways of killing one turret every 8 seconds. Although they have several shots now. But still, there are more cost effective ways of killing turret balls.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 21, 2010, 12:37:15 AM
Yes, there are a lot cheaper ways of killing one turret every 8 seconds. Although they have several shots now.
What has several shots now?  It's probably too late for me to try to make sense of things ;)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 21, 2010, 01:38:46 AM
I call for the credits on the Minefields Idea!  ;D
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Awod on August 21, 2010, 01:53:19 AM
That surprised me a lot, was attacking an AI homeworld took down two guard posts was on my way to a third I get fairly close to it, maybe enough for some to fire but mostly out of range so I start to zoom out to get a different view on thing and BLAM a huge circle of youngling cockroaches spawn. I think I jumped, was not expecting that at all.

oO wow, they are brutal..

(http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3/massacre.png)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: x4000 on August 21, 2010, 09:36:05 AM
I call for the credits on the Minefields Idea!  ;D

Oh yeah, I can definitely confirm you were originally the first to suggest this -- you even did art for it, nearly a year ago. :)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: RedrumJackle on August 21, 2010, 12:22:34 PM
Ooo Dreadnaught i mean Siegeship sounds a bit more fitting. ^_^;

I haven't tested the mine fields out, but I've been playing and things are looking smooth and good so far. Those Special Forces definitely got a bit more of a tanking ability. XD 4mill hp. They stand up for quite awhile.

Now I'm not exactly sure about this, but how many ships can Insta Kill Cloak spheres 'forgot the name' attack? It didn't seem all that dangerous to me when I was rolling around with cloaked ships just attacking stuff as the fleets were scrambling around trying to catch my ships. It seemed like it was only picking off 2-5 ships as I wasn't loosing that many.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 21, 2010, 12:23:49 PM
Yes, this will definitely assist my laziness in attacking AI worlds; drop off various starships including seiges and riots in range of multiple turret beds with some fleet support, and then do other grievous damage to the AI, like... sending a transport full of III bombers to another planet?  :D

Though I'm just wondering what fleet units pose the most significant threat?  Fighters (cruisers would definitely work well in a group with them then)?
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Diazo on August 21, 2010, 01:48:28 PM
Alright, went and unlocked Sieges to see how they'd do, and I'm too scared to use them.

In my current game I took the Neinzul Viral Enthusiast and Neinzul Cluster Bomber. Each has their own cluster structure which spawns a swarm of younglings when you get close.

This causes you to overlook the fact that they are also armed. The Swarmer Structure Mk II has an 83000 range, 32000 attack on a 2 second reload. Bomber Cluster Mk II's have the same, except a 200000 attack. They also get bonuses against starships. They were doing at least 150000 damage a shot to my light starships and they've account for my losses of 10 flagships and 20 light starships so far. I don't want to think about what that would do to my Sieges.

(My saturday morning log of my game is here. (http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,6741.msg53319.html#msg53319)

Going to give them a trial by fire here anyway, I've killed the Cluster structures in this next system although most of the rest is still up.

D.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: superking on August 21, 2010, 02:56:44 PM
yeah, have to say I dont find the insane dam output of clusters all that enjoyable either. they should 100% fire EMP instead  :(
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Diazo on August 21, 2010, 03:21:01 PM
I have no issues with the cluster having a mini-mass driver if that's the intention, but this just kind of appeared with this giant gun, when their main attack is supposed to be the younglings they spawn (as I understood it).

Depends on what the structure is supposed to actually be.

D.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 21, 2010, 03:22:52 PM
Well, the wiki page says about Neinzul Clusters:
Quote
These immobile structures are defensive weapons invented by the Neinzul. At long range, it fires heavily-damaging single shots similar to an ion cannon. Meanwhile, however, it is storing up Neinzul ships inside itself as time passes, and when player ships get too close, these burst out in full "free" mode.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: snrub_guy on August 21, 2010, 03:59:44 PM
Ha, yeh I just had to take a MKIII world, with an ion cannon and 5 Neizul clusters while I was only up to MkII. That took a while. But now I have finally killed some re-fitting stations for the hives! So that should get easier. Just wondering, I could have missed them, but is there an Icon for them in the galaxy map planetary summary? I didn't see any I don't think. In that they have a similar importance to some capturables that get an icon, maybe they should have them? Would make it a little simpler to find what planets you should attack to weaken the hives.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 21, 2010, 04:02:04 PM
There's no icon but they're listed as "Hybrid Facility" in the ship type counts.  I tried adding the icon but they all show up separately since the icons are by specific type rather than category.  So rather than have like 7 separate icons that all look the same on some of the mkIV worlds, I figured I'd just leave it to the ship types.  If you want to see the facility counts "at a glance" there's an overlay that will display that straight on the map.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: RedrumJackle on August 21, 2010, 04:25:41 PM
Something is very odd. I don't understand and i can't see how i'm loosing 1k Teleport raiders as soon as I enter a planet... O_o;

I see 1k+ enter.. 1194 or so to be exact.. then its 30 and dropping quick. >.>

I hear but ton of one explosion echo'd with masses others in one go.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: carlosjuero on August 21, 2010, 04:27:43 PM
Tried sending a few sacrificial scouts through? Maybe a cap group of scouts & a scout starship? [assuming you don't have scout presence otherwise you would see what is happening]
Something is very odd. I don't understand and i can't see how i'm loosing 1k Teleport raiders as soon as I enter a planet... O_o;

I see 1k+ enter.. 1194 or so to be exact.. then its 30 and dropping quick. >.>

I hear but ton of one explosion echo'd with masses others in one go.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: snrub_guy on August 21, 2010, 04:29:11 PM
There's no icon but they're listed as "Hybrid Facility" in the ship type counts.  I tried adding the icon but they all show up separately since the icons are by specific type rather than category.  So rather than have like 7 separate icons that all look the same on some of the mkIV worlds, I figured I'd just leave it to the ship types.  If you want to see the facility counts "at a glance" there's an overlay that will display that straight on the map.

Yeah,  assumed there was a reason. That'll be fine, I was just wondering. Oh by the way, I think Hives are in a very good place balance wise just now. They make everything more difficult, but are manageable with decent tactics. I'm really looking forward to seeing some matured ones cropping up- how do you know? Is the best indicator the mark level of their guards? If so, I've only met MkII equivalent.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: RedrumJackle on August 21, 2010, 04:32:47 PM
Tried sending a few sacrificial scouts through? Maybe a cap group of scouts & a scout starship? [assuming you don't have scout presence otherwise you would see what is happening]
Something is very odd. I don't understand and i can't see how i'm loosing 1k Teleport raiders as soon as I enter a planet... O_o;

I see 1k+ enter.. 1194 or so to be exact.. then its 30 and dropping quick. >.>

I hear but ton of one explosion echo'd with masses others in one go.

Well I mean I'm there seeing it, but it doesn't make sense why they're dieing like they are in a 1k batch.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: RedrumJackle on August 21, 2010, 04:35:54 PM
sending full cap scouts and starship scouts. -.-; they seem to die so easily too. XD
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: carlosjuero on August 21, 2010, 04:38:31 PM
What is in the system killing them? Sounds like you might be hitting a mass right on the wormhole.
sending full cap scouts and starship scouts. -.-; they seem to die so easily too. XD
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: RedrumJackle on August 21, 2010, 04:57:53 PM
managed to get a mass of scouts in.. XD

to say the least... i don't see anything that can pop 1k ships. theres no mass on the wormhole, and nothing that can hit multiple targets. o.o; however there are 2 permacloaked things in there right next to the wormhole.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: RedrumJackle on August 21, 2010, 05:00:55 PM
Heres a picture of whats all in there.

Fortress is a mk1. o.O
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: snrub_guy on August 21, 2010, 05:20:14 PM
Yes, there are a lot cheaper ways of killing one turret every 8 seconds. Although they have several shots now.
What has several shots now?  It's probably too late for me to try to make sense of things ;)

Um... looking at the release notes, nothing. My post was somewhat factually lacking. I honestly have no idea where I picked that gem from...
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Trezamere on August 21, 2010, 06:07:34 PM
I've actually been noticing scouts and scout starships instantly dieing as well when they shouldn't be, I think maybe there is some funkiness with the new mines and certain types of units?

Like one planet is MKIII and there are at most 10 units on the warp portal but a mass of scouts instantly dies when they zone in.  I think maybe they aren't immune to new mines or something IDK.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 21, 2010, 07:18:37 PM
Oh by the way, I think Hives are in a very good place balance wise just now. They make everything more difficult, but are manageable with decent tactics.
Yea, when I hear that people are getting to the point where they can shred them with a fleet I immediately think "ah, they're not hard enough!" but then I realize that the point isn't for them to be invincible death machines, and that they are succeeding in their goals of diverting significant player time and resources (and making it more interesting.

Quote
I'm really looking forward to seeing some matured ones cropping up
I'm really looking forward to working on them, looks like it's time to start implementing a few tricks here and there.

Quote
how do you know? Is the best indicator the mark level of their guards? If so, I've only met MkII equivalent.
They can only have guards of equal to or less than their mark level, yes; their guards won't always tell the full story as sometimes the hybrid hasn't had the need or chance to replenish their drones (they won't unilaterally drop them to replace them with newer ones, and they won't actively seek out a drone spawner until they're below half of their max subfleet size).  Their modules are usually a better indicator because upon maturing they will pretty much instantly drop everything and go find an appropriate-level equipment factory and refit.  The trouble there is that the different "branches" of classes (attacker, defender, builder) have different levels of access to the various modules.  A defender (the first tier of that branch) can have a MkII forcefield, but an attacker (the first tier of that branch, exact same amount of maturity as a defender) can only have a MkI but can also have MkII machine guns and laser cannons.  The builder branch tends to lack both, but can pick up construction modules from the construction factories and go around planting turrets and stuff (and, let's face it, even a builder with MkI equipment and a modest subfleet is a potential threat).

The most accurate way to tell what a hybrid is at the moment is to use F3 to turn on debug info and mouseover them, their description will mention their actual class and current mission, etc.  It's a mild form of cheating but kinda necessary at least during the beta for bug reports concerning them.  I think it's also a reasonable concession to players who are simply curious about the state of that game-within-a-game :)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: superking on August 21, 2010, 07:32:34 PM
Something is very odd. I don't understand and i can't see how i'm loosing 1k Teleport raiders as soon as I enter a planet... O_o;

I see 1k+ enter.. 1194 or so to be exact.. then its 30 and dropping quick. >.>

I hear but ton of one explosion echo'd with masses others in one go.

a single AI lightning turret?  :P
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Joe on August 22, 2010, 03:19:32 AM
I think you're heading in the right direction for the Dreadnought/Siege Starship; however, I feel like the massive range of some of the heavy defenses completely cripples them.  For example, earlier I sent in three of them against a single Fortress.  My starships did a huge amount of damage to it very quickly, but one of them also died from two volleys.  I had the same problem for one of the new guard posts.  I think it was a Missile one, but I don't remember.  I ended up taking large amounts of damage before even entering firing range.  I turned and fled to the exit wormhole back into safe territory and lost one on the way back.  To be fair, there were a few Mk 3 ships firing at it while it fled, but it wasn't being fired upon while closing to range with the guard post.

I think increasing their range significantly might be a good way to improve them.  Their damage seems sufficient to obliterate most turrets and such, but some of the other defensive units can vastly out-range them.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: RedrumJackle on August 22, 2010, 03:54:14 AM
Something is very odd. I don't understand and i can't see how i'm loosing 1k Teleport raiders as soon as I enter a planet... O_o;

I see 1k+ enter.. 1194 or so to be exact.. then its 30 and dropping quick. >.>

I hear but ton of one explosion echo'd with masses others in one go.

a single AI lightning turret?  :P

nope, even posted an image of whats on the planet when i finally broke through with the scouts. There is nothing that can kill 1k ships that spam from the wormhole and expand via teleportation. All within a single moment, pop.

its happened twice before I managed to get scouts in. I'm going to see if I can recreate the instance and create a save file for it as well as pausing every moment to inspect. i donno though.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Lancefighter on August 22, 2010, 03:56:09 AM
flak cannons might do that - tele raiders are incredibly fragile last i checked - a bunch of them exiting the wormhole (traditional choke point mechanics), an area of effect weapon hits them all - gotta be flak cannons. Maybe grenade launchers.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: RedrumJackle on August 22, 2010, 04:05:12 AM
Running the game at the moment, on pause, inspecting the wormhole... No Flaks, and I thought flak turrets only hit about 15 targets now or so. Unless they still hit them all...

There are no grenade units either. So I'm going to jump 1k ships in and see what happens.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: RedrumJackle on August 22, 2010, 04:12:00 AM
Ok heres a question. Do Laser Turrets fire AoE streams similar to HBMs?

I watch closely, and it appears as my fleet slips in. they flow like normal ships and the 'image' rams into the tractor beam which has a laser turret lined up perfectly to shoot down the line of my ships that warps in. When they hit the tractor beams i'm left with 27 out of 1192 ships.


LoL, nevermind... Improved Minefields FTW. XD!!!!.

But Yeeeeouch... o.o; That is a harsh impact. >.>
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: RedrumJackle on August 22, 2010, 04:16:12 AM
Before you were able to get away with your ships moving across the area and getting blown up... but with the new system the AI seems to be a deeply rooted one indeed.

I've felt the blunt and understand it now, so now i'm going to have the AI feel my sweet revenge XD!!
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Ozymandiaz on August 22, 2010, 06:05:37 AM
Just one comment on the hybrid icons; other starship has an icon that turns in the direction the starship does. Any plan for the hybrid to get that? :)

Its a minor thing, I know, just that I spend most of the time in the far zoomed out state ;)


Edit: Bonus question; is the marauders (the evil ones ;) )supposed to nuke the AIs new guard posts?
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 22, 2010, 06:46:09 AM
The Marauders attack everything that you can attack without forcing it. So yeah.. that seems intended behavior (though i think if they manage that it means marauders are too strong and not the GP's to weak ;P)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 22, 2010, 07:38:19 AM
I think you're heading in the right direction for the Dreadnought/Siege Starship; however, I feel like the massive range of some of the heavy defenses completely cripples them.  For example, earlier I sent in three of them against a single Fortress.  My starships did a huge amount of damage to it very quickly, but one of them also died from two volleys.  I had the same problem for one of the new guard posts.  I think it was a Missile one, but I don't remember.  I ended up taking large amounts of damage before even entering firing range.  I turned and fled to the exit wormhole back into safe territory and lost one on the way back.  To be fair, there were a few Mk 3 ships firing at it while it fled, but it wasn't being fired upon while closing to range with the guard post.

I think increasing their range significantly might be a good way to improve them.  Their damage seems sufficient to obliterate most turrets and such, but some of the other defensive units can vastly out-range them.
Thank you for the feedback :) Actually this sounds like almost exactly the experience I was intending; sending sieges in without cover is like moving slow artillery on their own wheels/treads up a road covered by alert enemy artillery (i.e. not tactically advisable). There are several ways to deal with this, here are a few:

1) Clear out all the outranging stuff before sending the sieges in.
2) Load the sieges into a transport and don't unload them until they're at the proper range to fire.
3) Place the sieges under a Forcefield or a Riot's onboard forcefield (or even just a bunch of forcefield bearers).  This drastically cuts the siege's attack power but drastically increases its survivability in most cases.  The Riot FF doesn't even cut the attack power (which is a rather nice advantage of them) but it doesn't have nearly the capacity of the larger units.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Ozymandiaz on August 22, 2010, 08:44:13 AM
The Marauders attack everything that you can attack without forcing it. So yeah.. that seems intended behavior (though i think if they manage that it means marauders are too strong and not the GP's to weak ;P)

Well, I did soften the plane up a bit, and kinda killed teh command center ;)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: superking on August 22, 2010, 08:52:40 AM
500k hp at MK I is horribly fragile for a starship with 200 shields, even the MK I sentinel frigate has 600k  :(
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Burnstreet on August 22, 2010, 09:19:05 AM
I should read in-game descriptions more... yesterday in a game with two friends we were cought twice by a deep counterattack wave.
Is it by design that both waves were about as far away from the fronts as possible (10 and 11 hops) or was it just bad luck? In any case, it spiced up things a bit.

One thing that we had was one CPA announced as 7k+ ships, when the countdown stopped only 4k were added to tthe thread and no messages of anything put in baracks. It's a 3 player game at about 800 aip (T3), diff 7. Is that supposed to be  like that?

My biggest challenge with all the toys you've given us is producing enough energy, I am currently at 2m, constantly running short, and I didn't yet activate a golem and don't have many starships (just raid line + flag/zenith).

currently we're building up a super terminal defense... got >2k turrets including 2x all beam cannons, 3 OMDs, shield booster, shild inhibitor, 2 MK1 forts, black hole gen, wonder how far we can get with that (never really tried before).
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Ozymandiaz on August 22, 2010, 10:19:12 AM
I have been trying out the Preservation Warden now. I have killed like 15 of them the last 20 minutes. There seem to spawn an awful lot of them. Is tehre supposed to spawn a ton of them all the time?

Not sure if my save will say anything useful, but here it is. I have just been "deep striking" a bunch of them since the constant waves was starting to get annoying :)

Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Fleet on August 22, 2010, 12:22:14 PM
Thank you for the feedback :) Actually this sounds like almost exactly the experience I was intending; sending sieges in without cover is like moving slow artillery on their own wheels/treads up a road covered by alert enemy artillery (i.e. not tactically advisable). There are several ways to deal with this, here are a few:

This sounds reasonable, given that enemy units will target other ships around the Siege Starship, if both are present. Can you comment on what targets the AI will prioritize, if there is a Siege Starship in with a modest group of fleet ships? (can I be assured that my Siege ship won't just be picked off?). Lets say I'm attacking a missile post, and my Siege Starship is the only thing even in range, with my fleet ships close be to protect from AI fleet ship. Would the Missile Post still prioritize my fleet ships, even though only my Siege Starship is going any damage whatsoever?
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Joe on August 22, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
Thank you for the feedback :) Actually this sounds like almost exactly the experience I was intending; sending sieges in without cover is like moving slow artillery on their own wheels/treads up a road covered by alert enemy artillery (i.e. not tactically advisable). There are several ways to deal with this, here are a few:

1) Clear out all the outranging stuff before sending the sieges in.
2) Load the sieges into a transport and don't unload them until they're at the proper range to fire.
3) Place the sieges under a Forcefield or a Riot's onboard forcefield (or even just a bunch of forcefield bearers).  This drastically cuts the siege's attack power but drastically increases its survivability in most cases.  The Riot FF doesn't even cut the attack power (which is a rather nice advantage of them) but it doesn't have nearly the capacity of the larger units.

Thanks, I'll try the transports and forcefields out.  I had tried clearing out the long range stuff first with my Raid Starships after my previous attempt, but I felt that at that point, I might as well just use the Raid Starships to clean up the sector if I hadn't already bought the Siege Starships.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Giegue on August 22, 2010, 02:30:43 PM
they're more like post-seige starships aren't they. I've never used them that way, I've always stuck with Raid starships.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Fox Soul on August 22, 2010, 02:40:40 PM
This update made my minefield OP'ed.  :D

(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/234/a/7/Mine_Field_by_hpcompaq.jpg)

It nearly gave me the same laugh when I designed my autobomber strategy.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 22, 2010, 02:59:32 PM
500k hp at MK I is horribly fragile for a starship with 200 shields, even the MK I sentinel frigate has 600k  :(
Yes, they are intended to be horribly fragile, this is part of the point.

As for them being post-siege, well, if you want to use them *safely* without significant support from other units, then yes, you will have to wait until the long range defenses are down.  If you want to use them in the heavy action you'll have to protect them :)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 22, 2010, 03:02:37 PM
Thank you for the feedback :) Actually this sounds like almost exactly the experience I was intending; sending sieges in without cover is like moving slow artillery on their own wheels/treads up a road covered by alert enemy artillery (i.e. not tactically advisable). There are several ways to deal with this, here are a few:

This sounds reasonable, given that enemy units will target other ships around the Siege Starship, if both are present. Can you comment on what targets the AI will prioritize, if there is a Siege Starship in with a modest group of fleet ships? (can I be assured that my Siege ship won't just be picked off?). Lets say I'm attacking a missile post, and my Siege Starship is the only thing even in range, with my fleet ships close be to protect from AI fleet ship. Would the Missile Post still prioritize my fleet ships, even though only my Siege Starship is going any damage whatsoever?
There isn't any special targeting logic used against the Siege Starship (it does use some special logic to pick its own targets), so I honestly don't know whether you'll see them get picked off in a given circumstance.  But the auto-target logic does not really pay any attention to how much damage a given ship is actually doing or can do, since the whole system of questions about base dps, multipliers, range, immunities, etc is so complex.

Generally count on having to protect them, but the AI doesn't have any code saying "if(obj.Type == SiegeStarship) killkillkill;" ;)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: superking on August 22, 2010, 07:36:36 PM
I guess the mine shipcap should be lowered now  ;D
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Vinraith on August 22, 2010, 08:21:23 PM
I guess the mine shipcap should be lowered now  ;D

It has been. :) Fox Soul must have loaded a save game from before the change, all his individual mines got turned into minefields. I had a save like that, and ended up 500 or so over cap.  ;D
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Fox Soul on August 23, 2010, 01:07:51 AM
It has been. :) Fox Soul must have loaded a save game from before the change, all his individual mines got turned into minefields. I had a save like that, and ended up 500 or so over cap.  ;D

Actually, I was with'en ship cap limits for minefields.
I don't usually make over 500 for mines per area before the change.

Also you can just make out 463 mines for the count on the planet.
They're just very compacted.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Rustayne on August 23, 2010, 05:44:32 AM
Wanted to give ya some feedback on the Seige Starships.  We tested a mk1 on a mk3 planet that we killed supply to.  It had 105 turrets on it, and a fortress.  The fortress, well it didn't survive long.  I think i counted 10-11 shots and it went poof. Was about 30 seconds or so. Most of the turrets followed suit except tractor beams.  I'm not sure if tractors are considered defense or not, but they didn't seem to really get a bonus to them.  A mk3 tractor loses 3% health per hit.  While this is respectable for 1 ship, when it hit the mk3 missile turret, it took 67%.  Hope these numbers help you out a little on the balance process.  Overall though, I love them.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 23, 2010, 08:03:52 AM
Thanks for the feedback on Sieges.  Sounds right on taking down the fortress, etc (though if it was still in supply you'd have had to protect the Sieges or lose some).  Very weird on the tractor turrets, I thought they would be counted with all the other turrets in the bonuses.  Will look into that :)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: orzelek on August 23, 2010, 09:25:35 AM
Tractor turrets are in separate category from long time. Units that kill other turrets do not murder tractors etc I noticed that even with bombers or tanks i think.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 23, 2010, 09:30:34 AM
Yea, I looked at the code and realized that.  Some ships do get bonuses against both.  Anyway, Sieges will have bonuses against tractor beam turrets in the next release.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: orzelek on August 23, 2010, 09:32:26 AM
Do you think it would be possible to get a bit more range to sieges - unless you want some defence structures that are deliberately counters for sieges and have more range then them - like fortresses and clusters?
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 23, 2010, 09:34:30 AM
Yea, the range on sieges compared to the ranges on fortresses and such is quite intentional; they're supposed to outrange a lot of defenses, but not all of them.  To take them against the biggies like fortresses you'll need to protect the sieges.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: zebramatt on August 23, 2010, 09:50:41 AM
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 23, 2010, 10:05:08 AM
  • Do Hybrid Hive Nodes show up in the Planetary Intel?
Yes, both "Hybrid Hives" and "Hybrid Facilities" show up in the list of ship counts.  There are also galaxy overlays displaying counts of them.
Quote
  • Can they be added to the auto-target list for mobile military?
I don't know why they wouldn't already be, but I'll check.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 23, 2010, 05:23:46 PM
Military Orbital desc.:

"...the higest mark version provides..."

EDIT:  Also, unrelated, but are cloaked ships supposed to be attacked like this?

Note the fighters and bombers there are attacking the said cloaked ships, but the teleport stations don't seem to be attacking them.

Apparently having a tachyon nearby isn't decloaking them, and they're not being destroyed either.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: quickstix on August 23, 2010, 07:39:12 PM
This update made my minefield OP'ed.  :D

Best minefield ever.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 23, 2010, 08:53:44 PM
Why do the II/III command station variants have the "cannot use wormhole" tag?  If this is for the enemy, should the economy variants have this?
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Lancefighter on August 23, 2010, 08:55:06 PM
I'm fairly sure those are cloaked tachyon emitters, and thus immune to minor electric there spikey
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: superking on August 24, 2010, 07:49:48 AM
do viral swarmers sent along with neinzul waves at higher AIP? at difficulty 9 I'm recieving waves of 6k ships at 10 AIP but these currently evaporate at the hands of 5 lightning turrets
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 24, 2010, 08:36:53 AM
Viral swarmers are only ever spawned by viral clusters, since they aren't actually a "real" ship type, just a one-off like the Neinzul Bomber.  So they won't be part of waves.

For that matter they actually don't absorb electric attacks yet, that will come later ;)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: CogDissident on August 24, 2010, 09:07:55 AM
So, after playing a game where my siege starships and minefields featured prominently, I have to say this is my favorite update yet (other than the one that put in my favorite fleet ship, z beam frigates). The siege starships are powerful from a distance, and good at taking out the new extra-healthy special forces posts.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 24, 2010, 09:11:56 AM
Glad you're liking it :)

Yea, the sieges have all kinds of caveats, but if they can safely sit still and just shoot at something big, they shine :)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: superking on August 24, 2010, 10:28:43 AM
oh ok - I assumed few would be included with every neinzul wave in the same manner that mad bomber waves always include a bomber starship as a discouragement from the old 'I have 5 lightning turrets, all your neinzul are belong to us' but if the electricity thing isnt actually implemented that would indeed be rather pointless
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 24, 2010, 10:30:44 AM
Well, in theory we could make younglings immune to aoe but I'd need to get police protection first ;D
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Ktoff on August 24, 2010, 11:06:39 AM
with the new update minefields become more dangerous. So i thought... let's dismantle this minefield(s). I take a decloaker and lots of clean-up drones with me and while i see the location of the cloaked ships, i cannot dismantle them. I can, however, let my other ships fire on the mines to destroy them. The remains were then dutifully removed by my clean-up drones.

As i did not feel the need to deal with mines (appart from circumventing them via transports) this is probably standard behaviour, but how do you properly clean-up a minefield. Shooting at it takes forever....
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 24, 2010, 01:28:29 PM
Do they have THAT much HP?  I'm relatively sure that that bunch of fighters and bombers have been firing away at those for half an hour.  Even so, why are they not decloaked when there's a scout starship there?

I'm fairly sure those are cloaked tachyon emitters, and thus immune to minor electric there spikey
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Lancefighter on August 24, 2010, 04:49:17 PM
o.0 no, definitely not half an hours worth of combined dps from those, but i cant think of any other cloaked building (thus immune to minor electric) that wouldnt uncloak to shoot.
They do seem to be shooting tachyon beam thingies though from the screenshot you provided? i dunno what other options there are.

Maybe engineers, but i mean, even those should die quickly..
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 24, 2010, 05:02:33 PM
I recall that they were still shown as the "blue cloak bubble" even if they did not have a tachyon beam to reveal it; assuming it's something to do with the tractor turrets.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Joe on August 24, 2010, 11:59:23 PM
I've been using Siege Starships a bit since my last post.  They do seem quite good with a personal Transport chauffeur.  I wanted to note that their damage dealt to different types of Starships seems to vary pretty wildly.  Against the Light Starship and its upgrades, the Siege Starships will obliterate them in a few volleys (using five Mk Is).  Against Raid and Leech Starships, the damage seems pretty pitiful.  I think I was doing between 5-10% per volley.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Lancefighter on August 25, 2010, 12:22:48 AM
I recall that they were still shown as the "blue cloak bubble" even if they did not have a tachyon beam to reveal it; assuming it's something to do with the tractor turrets.
Odd. I cant think of anything else that would quite do that effect.. What if you hit them with some major electric?(lighting warheads..)
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 25, 2010, 12:49:27 AM
Well as we played on they sort of disappeared off to somewhere, but I am definitely sure they survived a ton of minutes of beating before I noticed they were suddenly gone.  I'll see what I can come up with in that past replay when I have time.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Diazo on August 25, 2010, 01:17:10 AM
In one of the recent patch notes I remember something about the cloaked warp point "guard posts" that die when the command station is destroyed being made vulnerable to emp and their HP dropped from 2 billion to 20 million or so.

Now that I go and look for it, I can't find that specific change, but I'm sure I remember a change of some sort to them that may have done something wierd that you saw.

D.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Lancefighter on August 25, 2010, 01:25:15 AM
It wouldnt be a guard post, they would never be uncloaked. If emp'd, they would be visible.. but its generally futile to shoot them last i checked.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 25, 2010, 01:35:06 PM
Quite hilariously, the culprits were some AI space tugs...  oddly nothing but EMP missiles could decloak them.

Sheesh, and I thought it was some sort of AI super weapon, supposedly one George Bush was after.  :\
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: eRe4s3r on August 25, 2010, 01:38:55 PM
I never knew the AI could have space tugs at all... What were they tugging and where to???? ;P
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 25, 2010, 01:55:34 PM
I have no idea, as this was a home planet in the middle of our territory, though I did notice that the AI were tractoring their ships to MRSs on their planets, I just never made the association that they would deliberately send their tugs out to DECLARE WAR ON US!
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: keith.lamothe on August 25, 2010, 01:58:27 PM
The tugs were there to tow away your colony ships.

More seriously, the tugs are basically perma-cloaked and invincible, so we'll probably need to find a way for them to not show up on the "radar" of either the player's UI or player ship autotargeting.  Basically like the wormhole guard posts that you wouldn't know were there short of an emp/tach.
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Lancefighter on August 25, 2010, 02:02:34 PM
i did notice a few ai tugs flying around (usually when a MRS is on planet), but I didn't know they were that hard to kill
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: Spikey00 on August 25, 2010, 02:09:50 PM
I'm still curious to know why they weren't revealed completely when they were tachyon'd; I thought logically they were immune to tractor beams.

--

TRACTOR BEAM MY COLONY SHIPS!?  FOR HEAVEN SAKES, NO!
Title: Re: Prerelease 3.185/6/8 (Minefields, Seige Starships, Fixes)
Post by: x4000 on August 25, 2010, 09:22:17 PM
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