Author Topic: Prerelease 3.181 (New CoN features, AI Ship Counts Down, 45 New Guard Posts)  (Read 27011 times)

Offline Buttons840

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When I saw "45 new guard posts" I realized that new features are coming at an exponential rate.  Soon this game will be beyond comprehension of both man and machine.  ;)

Offline carlosjuero

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That is the way it was supposed to happen, but it isn't quite working that way (due, I think, to a combination of ship caps and barracks caps along w/ border agression rules). Thats how I went from 600 Threat to over 4,000 within 2 minutes and suffered a 4,000 ship [+/-] CPA within 5 minutes of loading a long term game save.

Rather than blowing up the ships that are too high level to be reasonably released in border aggression at a given AI tech level, why not shunt them to a barracks (or possibly some new, similar structure specifically for this purpose)?

You know, I think about my post history, and I'm starting to think I advocate on behalf of the AI more often than I do anything else. ;D

Offline carlosjuero

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When I saw "45 new guard posts" I realized that new features are coming at an exponential rate.  Soon this game will be beyond comprehension of both man and machine.  ;)

Well, when compared to the original release of the game it already has gone beyond the comprehension we had of it then :).

Offline Vinraith

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When I saw "45 new guard posts" I realized that new features are coming at an exponential rate.  Soon this game will be beyond comprehension of both man and machine.  ;)

AI War: Flee Command is the singularity, it turns out.  ;D

Offline Burnstreet

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Just a question: is there an always available fleetship that has bonuses against the hives?
Unfortunately you don't always have polarizers or IREs available...
if not, maybe they would also be good candidates for the merc factory.

Offline zebramatt

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A Viral Enthusiast just threw a wave (my first one, I might add; my other AI opponent is a Shield Ninny) of 2000 frigates at me!

I'm assuming this is a balance issue...?

See the attached save.

Offline x4000

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When I saw "45 new guard posts" I realized that new features are coming at an exponential rate.  Soon this game will be beyond comprehension of both man and machine.  ;)

It's been a growth spurt for the last little while, that's for sure.  Next up is the polish/bugfix phase for all this stuff that is out, which will feel a lot slower, along with the platform jump, which will feel a LOT slower.  But, I'm really pleased with the recent growth, too.  My goal has been both to make up for the time during which Tidalis was taking the development focus exclusively, and for the upcoming time while I'm out on paternity leave, and while we're doing the unity conversion.  And, frankly, I was feeling inspired and just had a rush of ideas after my break. :)

Rather than blowing up the ships that are too high level to be reasonably released in border aggression at a given AI tech level, why not shunt them to a barracks (or possibly some new, similar structure specifically for this purpose)?

You know, I think about my post history, and I'm starting to think I advocate on behalf of the AI more often than I do anything else. ;D

I thought about that, but it really begs the question: to what purpose?  If the balance can be made to work without going through that extra complexity, then it's not worthwhile to add in the extra CPU demands or coding time, is where I'm coming from.  As carlosjuero points out, I sort of hedged in the last release and that had mixed results that wound up with a lot of bum rushing on certain saves, etc.

Just a question: is there an always available fleetship that has bonuses against the hives?
Unfortunately you don't always have polarizers or IREs available...
if not, maybe they would also be good candidates for the merc factory.

I am not sure, that's a good question for Keith.  But that is a good point.

A Viral Enthusiast just threw a wave (my first one, I might add; my other AI opponent is a Shield Ninny) of 2000 frigates at me!

I'm assuming this is a balance issue...?

See the attached save.


Hmm, will check that out.
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Offline x4000

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A Viral Enthusiast just threw a wave (my first one, I might add; my other AI opponent is a Shield Ninny) of 2000 frigates at me!

I'm assuming this is a balance issue...?

See the attached save.

Ah, okay -- no problems there, you did it to yourself. ;)

The Zenith Power Generator doubles the size of the waves, and the ion cannon mark IV makes them 10x larger.  So, combined you're looking at a wave that is 20x larger than it otherwise would have been, and most likely it hit the cap and just stuck at 2000.  Generally it's a good idea not to build those structures on planets that have warp gates adjacent to them still! :)
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Offline Sunshine!

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Thank you so much for making starships build faster as well!  That was always a nightmare waiting for them to build/rebuild.

Offline x4000

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Sure thing!
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Offline keith.lamothe

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As for fleet ships vs. Hybrids, the bombers are good for taking down the forcefields, the fighters (in swarms) are good for damaging the hull just like any starship.

But you'll have some difficulty if you rely solely on fleet ships, Dreads are good for hull damage and Heavy Beam Cannons are great for just doing tons of raw damage.
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Offline zebramatt

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A Viral Enthusiast just threw a wave (my first one, I might add; my other AI opponent is a Shield Ninny) of 2000 frigates at me!

I'm assuming this is a balance issue...?

See the attached save.

Ah, okay -- no problems there, you did it to yourself. ;)

The Zenith Power Generator doubles the size of the waves, and the ion cannon mark IV makes them 10x larger.  So, combined you're looking at a wave that is 20x larger than it otherwise would have been, and most likely it hit the cap and just stuck at 2000.  Generally it's a good idea not to build those structures on planets that have warp gates adjacent to them still! :)

Ah yes, I see!

I was aware of the penalty for the Zenith Generator but hadn't clocked the Ion Cannon!

Note to self: must read tooltips more carefully.

Offline x4000

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 ;D  No worries.
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Offline Vinraith

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I thought about that, but it really begs the question: to what purpose?  If the balance can be made to work without going through that extra complexity, then it's not worthwhile to add in the extra CPU demands or coding time, is where I'm coming from.  As carlosjuero points out, I sort of hedged in the last release and that had mixed results that wound up with a lot of bum rushing on certain saves, etc.

It's a fair point, my thought was that the AI needed all its ships to preserve the balance of things. If you've got a way around that, then there's no need.

Offline x4000

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I thought about that, but it really begs the question: to what purpose?  If the balance can be made to work without going through that extra complexity, then it's not worthwhile to add in the extra CPU demands or coding time, is where I'm coming from.  As carlosjuero points out, I sort of hedged in the last release and that had mixed results that wound up with a lot of bum rushing on certain saves, etc.

It's a fair point, my thought was that the AI needed all its ships to preserve the balance of things. If you've got a way around that, then there's no need.

Well, whether or not I've achieved that or not is certainly a point that could be debated -- but I think there are simpler, more interesting ways to adjust the balance, at any rate.  Having new AI-specific weapons like the guard posts are a good example of that, versus just cramming 5000 core ships into a planet.

In this particular case, when the AI finds that it's already crammed itself full of ships, then it tries to send out some border aggression to give a trickle of threat to the player, but that's only moderately interesting -- and it gets to be too much rather quickly.  Slightly more interesting is the AI Barracks, where the overflow gets sent, but that would quickly become nothing but a tedious extra grindy step if it was carried too far.

Right now my focus is more on larger, specialized, fun-different-rules type of weapons in the hands of the AI, that can hopefully combine to create interesting puzzles for the players.  So far the focus has been simply on the seeding of those from the start, but if reinforcements cap out there's always the potential that the AI could latently build some new big weapons in those circumstances.  Of course, that then requires some new powers for the human players to let them suppress that, and that's getting into another phase of design for the game that I'm not ready to work on yet, but which I think will add an interesting new level.

The amount of playtesting that the current setup has had is what I would term "minimal," in the sense that it takes a lot of testing to really see if the balance is good, or what.  If it turns out to be too easy, I don't think that just throwing a few extra ships on the core planets, or into something like barracks on those planets, will really do the trick.  I think it would be a new style of reinforcement mechanism layered on top of the existing reinforcements setup, to really provide the varied texture I want, rather than just increasing the grind.

Anyway, that's the line of thinking I've been going down, at any rate.
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