Author Topic: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)  (Read 17331 times)

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2010, 08:12:36 am »
Epic!

I like the new guard posts, seen a few of em already :)
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Offline Thumpy

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2010, 08:56:25 am »
wow, this game just keeps getting better and better. will give this one a spin tonight. sounds really promising!

thanks to all involved making this game, i'm going through a difficult time in my life and this game is a much needed distraction.

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2010, 09:13:58 am »
One question, I tried building the MK III, IV, and V cannons from the trader (on the same planet... for fun :P).

Are the wave amplification effect supposed to happen before I have them finished? Because suddenly a wave of 2000 bombers came along where I normally got 200 sized waves. I managed to kill me off, but they got dangerously close to my command center. I have killed the warp gate now of course as well, but thought I had better time to do that since the Ion cannons takes a while to make. :)

(Edit: it also seem max wave size is 2000, correct?)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2010, 09:47:01 am by Ozymandiaz »
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Offline CodeMichael

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2010, 09:35:04 am »
So in this new endgame are we still being heavily penalized for taking planets adjacent to the homeworld?  Or do you think the ship caps mean that we can now reasonably take an adjacent planet to launch the attack from?  I understand it's tactically somewhat interesting to have to launch attacks from more than one planet away, but given what it looks like you're trying to do I'd think that the final homeworld should be set up by default in such a way that you -want- to be setup in an adjacent world, maybe have an AI type (or several) where that isn't a good idea, or guard posts that you need to destroy before taking an adjacent planet, etc.

Or maybe we're just not meant to have supply on the AI homeworlds :)

Offline Ktoff

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2010, 09:59:52 am »
Also a quick question concerning devourer golem and neinzul hybrid hives: Is it intended that the hive ships attack the devourer golem without the golem firing back?

BTW: The hybrids are an awesome addition. Annying and hard to kill :-)

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2010, 11:13:32 am »
Many thanks again, all.  More good stuff coming today, too: I was playing near the endgame last night, and the balance still doesn't feel quite right, but it's getting closer!

          o Going along with the above, there is now quite a bit of strategy and puzzle-style challenge

I think you should make the guard posts have a color and an arrow. I think we could do some interesting things with that.

Heh.  ;D

Are the wave amplification effect supposed to happen before I have them finished? Because suddenly a wave of 2000 bombers came along where I normally got 200 sized waves. I managed to kill me off, but they got dangerously close to my command center. I have killed the warp gate now of course as well, but thought I had better time to do that since the Ion cannons takes a while to make. :)

(Edit: it also seem max wave size is 2000, correct?)

Yep on both questions.  The max wave size is I think 2000 per AI player per line item in the listing; in a multiplayer game, that would make the max cumulative "announced at one time" wave size 2000 x 2 x NumberPlayers.

On the amplification effect, that does indeed happen when things are still under construction, by design.  They see that you're building whatever, and get pretty alarmed.  :P

So in this new endgame are we still being heavily penalized for taking planets adjacent to the homeworld?  Or do you think the ship caps mean that we can now reasonably take an adjacent planet to launch the attack from?

Well, in 3.080 I think it would be suicide same as it always has been, if not moreso.  That's something I've already started to address in 3.081, but I've got more planned for that, too.  Basically the idea is that it should still be a questionable decision, but that sometimes it would be the right decision -- in the past it was never the right decision, so that's a big change.

I understand it's tactically somewhat interesting to have to launch attacks from more than one planet away, but given what it looks like you're trying to do I'd think that the final homeworld should be set up by default in such a way that you -want- to be setup in an adjacent world, maybe have an AI type (or several) where that isn't a good idea, or guard posts that you need to destroy before taking an adjacent planet, etc.

Yeah, I agree that I'd really like it to vary by the type of homeworld you are facing.  Not necessarily the AI type, but making it so that depending on what guard post types are there, you might need various different tactics.  One problem with how it was before was that it was SO black and white: one decision was really wrong, another was really right.  All that does is reward expert players for their niche knowledge while penalizing everyone else, and that's not strategically interesting or something I generally like to do.  That situation arose somewhat organically, and I never had a good way to logically combat that in the past until now (coming up in 3.081).

Also a quick question concerning devourer golem and neinzul hybrid hives: Is it intended that the hive ships attack the devourer golem without the golem firing back?

BTW: The hybrids are an awesome addition. Annying and hard to kill :-)

Glad you enjoy them!  I would have to defer to Keith on the hybrids at the moment, I haven't had much chance to do much with them.  But I'd start by looking at their immunities, it might just be that they have immunities of a sort that blocks the devourer, I'm not sure.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2010, 11:21:32 am »
Very impressive stuff with the endgame, that's seriously cool :)

On the Hybrids; the actual hives themselves are Core ships, and thus automatically immune to Devourers, Dyson Gatlings, etc.  The drones that typically escort a Hybrid are just normal ships so unless you're dealing with a tier-5-maturity Hybrid that has visited a Mark V Drone Spawner it won't have core drones, and the drones will die in the blink of an eye to the Devourer. 

In theory, a large gang of Hybrids that happened to pick up some of the more siege-oriented weaponry (which is not added yet) could but a serious dent in the Devourer.  That would be interesting to see ;)
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Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2010, 11:22:38 am »
Very cool. :)
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2010, 11:24:41 am »
Ahh, I am kinda glad 2000 was max. By my simple calculations (I also got mixed waves) I should have had a 48000 unit wave. 200 standard times 10 times 6 times 4 :P

I guess thats why only 1 unit type came through and not a mixed wave, since it was limited by design :)


And again, kudos on endgame, I really like the new stuff and its design. The guard posts looks pretty nice :).
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Offline Buttons840

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2010, 11:25:32 am »
Speaking of Golems, as all the incredible new additions are made and we get more and more new toys to play with the existing Golems will become even more obscure.

Maybe it's time to reconsider their balancing yet again?

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2010, 11:28:33 am »
Ahh, I am kinda glad 2000 was max. By my simple calculations (I also got mixed waves) I should have had a 48000 unit wave. 200 standard times 10 times 6 times 4 :P

Yeah, we had someone get hit by a wave with 30,000 ships and that naturally caused a crash, so we put a cap in place. :)

I guess thats why only 1 unit type came through and not a mixed wave, since it was limited by design :)

Yeah, most likely it finished adding all the ships from the first type, then ran out of room and just stopped!

And again, kudos on endgame, I really like the new stuff and its design. The guard posts looks pretty nice :).

Thanks!  I did those in Groboto, which I have used for a few years but haven't had much time to use lately.  A lot of the new stuff I'm doing in that.  Now that we've got a 3D aesthetic going with a lot of ships, I'm able to contribute more to the art from time to time, since I have a background in that.  When it was pixel art, I could only do really limited stuff, as I'm just not a natural at that.  But I really like how much more menacing and important the home planets of the AI look now, anyway. :)

Speaking of Golems, as all the incredible new additions are made and we get more and more new toys to play with the existing Golems will become even more obscure.

Maybe it's time to reconsider their balancing yet again?

Funny you should mention that, there's already a pretty significant shift to them in the 3.181 release notes. :)  And more might be coming, too, it just is the first step of potentially many.
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Offline snrub_guy

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2010, 12:28:35 pm »
With hybrid hives on A.I planets: Can they re-fit their force field modules very quickly at A.I command stations or am I mistaken? I definitely could be, as I wasn't paying a huge amount of attention. I ask, because it seemed to make attacking a mark 1 world a lot trickier. Because if it's true, they can come up, blast me for a while, and then retreat for a few moments before charging into me. Tricky when there are 5 of them all doing it. Of course, it could have been others popping in through wormholes while I wasn't looking.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2010, 12:31:08 pm »
They can refit their modules instantly if there is a Module Factory of the appropriate mark level on the planet (they can also get lower mark stuff from lower mark factories, but they tend to not choose to do that).  But if you have over 100 military ships on the planet the module factory will temporarily stop working (it takes a moment for that to kick in, so I suggest having well over 100 on the planet for at least 30 seconds before counting on it). 

A more permanent solution is to destroy the module factory :)
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Offline Spikey00

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2010, 01:38:16 pm »
          o Going along with the above, there is now quite a bit of strategy and puzzle-style challenge

I think you should make the guard posts have a color and an arrow. I think we could do some interesting things with that.

rofl

Another excellent update--I'll have to see these changes myself (though after because TOUHOU 12.8 is released!!)!
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Offline CodeMichael

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Re: Prerelease 3.180 (Completely New Endgame)
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2010, 01:40:42 pm »
Random thoughts, most of these could be modified by the AI type or guard posts:

-homeworld adjacent planets are assaulted every X minutes when Human controlled.  waves are core ships and unreclaimable.  number of ships = X - (number of guard posts)x10, minimum of Y.  Therefore the waves get more intense as you kill guard posts.

-while homeworld adjacent planet is human controlled you get (number of guard posts)xY (or Z if only one homeworld is left) AIP every X minutes

-all ships and structures take ongoing damage while on a human controlled Homeworld adjacent planet.  It can be mitigated by repair, but would end up being expensive and difficult to maintain.

-AI starts building a nuke when homeworld adjacent planet is human controlled.   ;D

-when a homeworld adjacent planet is human controlled backdoor wormhole opens up and starts sending ships every X minutes.

-when a homeworld adjacent planet is human controlled AI homeworld builds a gravity drill >_<

-when a homeworld adjacent planet is captured it causes a cross planet attack (maybe AI level +1)

I think most of these would be less punishing than the current model :)