Author Topic: Prerelease 3.168 (Huge shifts to golems, sniper turs, acid sprayers, engineers)  (Read 13294 times)

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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I.... am not sure on the Golem changes. I think this makes them less awesomely useful  :(

I gotta play and find out though.

The idea is the opposite.  Almost no one uses them now, so this is to incentivize people to actually do so while not making them game-breaking, heh.

Yeah, most experienced players avoid them due to the current costs.  The AI increase simply was too much.  Its why I would only take em if I felt I was insane enough.  These changes are radical, but they do make them a lot more useful.  Not to forget, one of the golems requires it to be on the frontlines or it dies eventually (can't remember which one).

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Offline Volatar

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I.... am not sure on the Golem changes. I think this makes them less awesomely useful  :(

I gotta play and find out though.

The idea is the opposite.  Almost no one uses them now, so this is to incentivize people to actually do so while not making them game-breaking, heh.

Yeah, most experienced players avoid them due to the current costs.  The AI increase simply was too much.  Its why I would only take em if I felt I was insane enough.  These changes are radical, but they do make them a lot more useful.  Not to forget, one of the golems requires it to be on the frontlines or it dies eventually (can't remember which one).

King

They always seemed to be a Superweapon to me. Turning them into just-another-fortress seems it may ruin their coolness.

Hmmmmm.... I just don't know...

Offline x4000

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???

1. The actual strength of these has not been reduced.
2. Unlike fortresses, they can move between planets at will.
3. The huuuge drawbacks of AI Progress have been removed, in hopes people will finally use them.
4. The only restrictions are that you can't go deep raiding (you have to be in supply), and you can't use them away from where the AI can send warps against you (you can't abuse these as cleanup weapons).

How is that anything like a fortress?  These are still offensive powerhouses, you just can't planet hop with them, which is part of the challenge of the strategy with them -- i.e., that you have to use different strategies than normal, because you can't planet hop with them.  I'm not confident that everyone actually understands what these changes actually entail, hopefully the above list makes it more clear.  Bear in mind that "in supply" is incredibly different from "on your planets."
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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I.... am not sure on the Golem changes. I think this makes them less awesomely useful  :(

I gotta play and find out though.

The idea is the opposite.  Almost no one uses them now, so this is to incentivize people to actually do so while not making them game-breaking, heh.

Yeah, most experienced players avoid them due to the current costs.  The AI increase simply was too much.  Its why I would only take em if I felt I was insane enough.  These changes are radical, but they do make them a lot more useful.  Not to forget, one of the golems requires it to be on the frontlines or it dies eventually (can't remember which one).

King

They always seemed to be a Superweapon to me. Turning them into just-another-fortress seems it may ruin their coolness.

Hmmmmm.... I just don't know...

Cept fortresses can only stay in the system they are built in.  But I hear you.  Originally though, they weren't being used.  They needed something fresh to make them more useful.  Why rebuild a Golem before this, if you can build another one of your fleets without an AI cost.  I am not saying this is good or bad yet because I have yet to play a game with these settings, so this is theory crafting on the changes atm.  
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rubikscube

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wow, let's see, you made 3 major changes in the game in like 2 weeks, it is crazy may update month isn't it.

Golem super buff, nice.

like sniper super buffs.

Offline x4000

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I.... am not sure on the Golem changes. I think this makes them less awesomely useful  :(

I gotta play and find out though.

The idea is the opposite.  Almost no one uses them now, so this is to incentivize people to actually do so while not making them game-breaking, heh.

Yeah, most experienced players avoid them due to the current costs.  The AI increase simply was too much.  Its why I would only take em if I felt I was insane enough.  These changes are radical, but they do make them a lot more useful.  Not to forget, one of the golems requires it to be on the frontlines or it dies eventually (can't remember which one).

King

They always seemed to be a Superweapon to me. Turning them into just-another-fortress seems it may ruin their coolness.

Hmmmmm.... I just don't know...

Cept fortresses can only stay in the system they are built in.  But I hear you.  Originally though, they weren't being used.  They needed something fresh to make them more useful.  Why rebuild a Golem before this, if you can build another one of your fleets without an AI cost.  I am not saying this is good or bad yet because I have yet to play a game with these settings, so this is theory crafting on the changes atm.  

And I hear you, too -- I didn't mean to imply otherwise.  I fixated on the fortress comparison, which I don't particularly agree with, but it's not like I think this is the end-all change to golems and they can never be changed again.

The one thing that I am pretty set on, at this stage, is that they must not have any AI Progress cost associated with them.  They were just too risky for the style of people who tend to play AI War, when designed in that fashion; I thought it would work well, but I'm not exaggerating when I say it seems like most of the playerbase never used them in real play, and many seem not to have even tried capturing them more than once or twice for fun.  Personally, I know I've never used them in a real game, just for testing and fun, which is a clue right there.  Even once they were rebalanced down from being so AIP-costly in recent times, that still wasn't enough for me to use them at all.

Okay, so now we have a superweapon that has no permanent-to-the-game cost.  Metal and crystal are easily renewable, and making these cost knowledge makes little sense, so that's pretty much eliminating any possibility of permanent cost -- AIP and knowledge being the only two finite resources.

Without any sort of real cost, and with the ability to repair the golems after their initial activation (which people really seemed to want to keep in past discussions), that gets into dangerous territory.  One other thing that many folks could agree on was that superweapons have killed many other RTS games they otherwise enjoyed, as it became a race to get the superweapon first, removing the need for any other strategies.

So from that angle, even these superweapons need some sort of limitation. With no possible limitations in permanent cost, that means it has to be some sort of functionality limitation.  But what sort of limits on a superweapon?  If I weaken them, then they just turn into oversized starships, which is not very interesting.  They might be fun to look at and have a few interesting abilities, but ultimately they occupy the same conceptual/strategic space then, which is lame for something so large.

Okay, so I can't weaken them, and I can't do permanent costs... the only thing I can think of is that they have to be limited in where they can be used.  So, I thought to myself, where is the point of using them, and where does it get abusive?  Well, most people like to use them either for raiding (by far the most fun thing, sweeping through enemy planets) or as part of general front-line offensives.   Some people seem likely to use these as the ultimate defenders, which is very bad as that makes it impossible for the AI to win because the golem is more powerful than anything that might slip through -- hence the warp gate proximity limitation.

But then we come back to the raiding and offense.  Going on a spree with a golem is fun, but my big fear with them is that players would use them to rush the home planets of the AI, or other key targets, and would win summarily based on just having the golem.  That's when you get into the situation of the game being broken and everyone losing interest in it.  That's why they always had AIP costs before, but that led to almost no one using them at all because of the conservative nature of the game.

Also, I really wanted these to be more than just oversized starships, in more than just abilities.  These needed to occupy some new strategic layer, ideally.  Something not seen yet in the game.  Well, so, that led me to the supply thing.  That fixes seemingly everything: players can't rush the AI home bases without doing a lot of preparation first, players can still steamroll nearby planets in a very fun way, and it creates a new dynamic where players have to think about connecting supply if they want to keep using their golems on a spree. That golem can still go on a spree, but it has to have a train of colony ships capturing planets behind it.

Does that take away some of the unfettered fun of the golems?  Sure.  But the only time anyone was experiencing that was when they were "just messing around" unless they weren't really playing a serious campaign.  The way I see it, the current solution is slightly less fun, but way more fun than not using them at all.  And if you get right down to it, "unfettered fun" has no place in a serious strategy game.  I say that somewhat facetiously, but seriously it's all about the fettering; if your opponent isn't giving you a run for your money, it isn't much fun.  Or, well it might be once or twice, but that's it.

Again, it's not that I'm stuck on this way of doing it.  I'm open to the fact that there may be an alternate concept that might work.  I just don't see it, and it's taken me 8 months to bring golems from their initial concept to this stage.  I suspect this won't be their last evolutionary step in any case, but I'm feeling like this is a hugely positive step for them for anyone who wants to use them in actual real gameplay rather than "just playing around" time.

I'm very interested in hearing reactions to this in actual practice, but at any rate I figured folks might like to know the rationale behind the decisions there.  It wasn't idly done, and I've been mulling this for quite a long time.  In the end, my perception was that I'm giving the fans what they want, more or less -- as much as I can without breaking the game, anyway. ;)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 02:15:46 am by x4000 »
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Offline Giegue

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yeah, the only time I would ever get a golem is if it was a hive or a zombie bot golem. even then, it would depend on how easy it is to get the planet, and where it is in the galaxy.

Offline x4000

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You're definitely not along Giegue; the hive was particularly low-risk.  Should be easier to actually experiment with all the golems now, I hope!

Updates in 3.167:

* Normally AI engineers should not try to repair broken golems (as of the last release), and the last release had a safety check that prevented broken golems from activating even if the AI did repair them. However, in some cases the AI was already in the process of repairing them, or would otherwise do so; in that event, the players could get a massive cost savings on metal/crystal by capturing the already-fully-repaired broken golem and simply activating it.

    * Now when a player captures any unit from a planet ownership change, if that unit had a lower-than-full-health starting health value, that unit is reverted to the starting health value assuming that it's current health is higher than that (if current health is already lower, it keeps the lower value).
    * This fix prevents the exploit even among edge cases where the AI does something unexpected.
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Offline quickstix

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I like the Golem changes. I've never used them in full games simply because of the AI cost, something I try to keep down as much as possible.

The cost of taking more planets to use them well feels like a much better cost than simply a huge AI progress hit.

Offline x4000

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Great!
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Offline Buttons840

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My views:

1) Mark my words, sniper turrets are very overpowered now.  It's just like described in the leech starship description.  Tag enemy ships with the leech, or turret in this case, and then let the rest of your military finish the converting.  There is no doubt that this will lead to nearly all enemy ships which enter the system being captured.  They then move the the MRS and get repaired to full health.

I'd like to see this leech turret (whatever?) be a 3rd tier sniper turret.  Like I said, they will lead to almost total conversion (capture) of all enemy ships, so mine as well make them have a hefty knowledge cost, like 5,000 k.  Also, sometimes I want sniper turrets, and I don't want random AI ships using up all my energy; sometimes I just don't want leeches.


2)  Let me cut to the chase and propose that all operational area restrictions (added in this version) be removed from the Golems.  You cited 2 scenarios you wanted to avoid, and I will attempt to show that these are not as big of a problem as you first think.

Scenario 1: Golems can be used as "goalies" on defense and create an impenetrable defense.  Golems aren't the only thing that can do this though.  You can build a dozen fortresses behind a wall of turrets and the AI wont be able to break you for dozens of hours.  Golems are not the most effective defense if you really focus on creating an impregnable planet.

Golems can be an very effective mobile defense, but you have done nothing to nerf this.  Say I have 3 fronts, and I get a wave on one of the fronts.  Because the wave is coming, there must be a warp gate adjacent, and thus I rush the Golem into place after the wave is announced (thus no wave penalty) and the Golem easily cleans up the wave.  Again, this is possible with the current limitations in place.  The Golem is still the ultimate in mobile defense.

You stopped Golems from being used as the "home goalie," but the home can still be made invincible - so null effect.  You didn't stop the mobile defense role of Golems either.

Scenario 2: Golems can be used for deep raids.  I've used Golems a few times, and never found them particularly good at attacking and especially at raiding.  I'll bet nobody has ever used them successfully in deep raids.  Consider the last time I tried to raid with one, while playing around with cheats:  I send the Golem out and the AI worlds rage as it's passing though and when it leaves all those raging ships attack me; suddenly I have a 2,000 threat level just because I flew the Golem around a few planets - and the AI will rage all the more if I'm using more than one Golem.  This alone is enough to discourage deep raiding.  I've never found a Golem to be useful on it's own either, so even if a successful raid was possible I'd still have to bring along a lot of my regular ships.  Lastly, the Golem always returns damaged and must be repaired at a hefty cost.  There is great fear of losing them in a deep raid, and I don't think deep raiding will be as easy as you'd first think.

Golems haven't been used a lot.  Why not be lenient to begin with and then fix exploits if they arise.

EDIT:  Remember Golems have been used unrestricted for several versions now.  A few times I've spared the 100 AIP to repair one, often having the AIP only around 300 once they're working (playing smaller maps, less AIP from capturing planets, and Golems are easier to find).  I didn't find the game much easier, and I couldn't just magically crush any planet of my choosing, especially not the AI homeworld.  All in all, Golems are powerful, but they aren't a one man army, and they can't do miracles all by themselves.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 02:38:31 am by Buttons840 »

rubikscube

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To buttons last post:

I'm amazed x hasn't replied yet ;)

sniper turrets indeed suddenly buffed so much (not saying much but sometimes you buff a ship too much at a time, but since it's beta, it's meant to be tweaked a lot, and yes i said that a lot) A third tier sniper would be cool, but think, what's a sniper's role? to do massive damage at a long distance and everybody said that the damage is not enough.
To make up this "sniper" role, you would need a lot of resources, but attacks at maybe even almost setinal frigate style, i forgot the exact numbers. and resource costs but setinal frigate seems like the best sniper ever , better than z bombardment of course, but that could work too.

If want to keep this "low" damage at long distance making it have a special ability is ok, though i would like a ion or beam cannon style, make spiders more expensive and it takes out full engines, and having reclaim ability is great. there's a ton of new roles for snipers so we can use that later.

and your response to golems is approval i seem to see? You did say that x removed features that was pretty useless anyway (deep raiding, goalies), what's your meaning of mobile defense?

Offline RCIX

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I'd like to throw in my own two cents here:

 * Aren't golems supposed to be weak to OMDs? if so, then i don't see the problem of players rushing key targets as you mentioned. Maybe adjust the OMD so that it has similar power over Golems as starships.
 * In order to cleanly jam the players using them for defense of any kind, make them not work when there's allied ships on the planet (the golem would go berzerk and kill the allied ships along with the enemies or something) -- so you have to risk the superweapon to use it -- then you have to repair it separately.
 * Remove the ability to repair golems out of supply so players don't use them for extended deep raiding without breaks

These changes, instead of forcing them into a relatively dull (though still fun) frontline defense unit, allow players to do some deep raiding as well, though they can't use their fleet or engineers with it to make an unstoppable force, and they can't hit key targets. You would still have to use your main fleet to take out OMDs if you wanted the golem to attack a planet, and it doesn't effectively function for any sort of defense.
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rubikscube

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no defense? is turtling that bad?


but anyways, if no defense, how about reduced power or no power at all (killing friendly ships is funny though)
when attacking it does it's full potential. This will still make people only use golems on core planets.

Offline AlexV

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         o Golems now require proximity to AI warp gates in order to function -- they have to be within one hop of an AI warp gate in order to attack, etc.
Do Exo-galactic wormholes count as warp gates for this? I've got a Core world at the end of a chain that I was really rather hoping to have my Golem assist me with, but there will be no actual warp gate anywhere near it. By "etc.", I assume you mean the Hive Golem can't unload its wasps?