Author Topic: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)  (Read 7360 times)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2010, 09:37:00 pm »
you should make the MKIII recycle itself when the planet is exausted  :P

This is actually a really good idea if the costs to make it are really steep and it takes forever to build (which I'm assuming since I haven't tried it yet).

I mean you're already throwing money away establishing the beach head and defending it; there (maybe) shouldn't be an even higher cost on top of that in the form of the research station that becomes completely useless after it's done its job (stationary/exhausted).  At least maybe a higher-then-default-scraping return or something, like 50%.

We really don't want people knowledge raiding unless they have pretty much no other choice.  The cost is just one more disincentive unless you're just backed into a corner in essence.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline quickstix

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 297
  • Buy Now
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2010, 09:44:40 pm »
Interesting changes, AI War continues to surprise me.

Also, someone always finds a way to make me take more planets.  :P

Offline superking

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2010, 10:11:39 pm »
I suggested recycle on exhaustion so I dont have to manually self-D exhausted stations that are eating my energy  :P

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2010, 10:13:14 pm »
I suggested recycle on exhaustion so I dont have to manually self-D exhausted stations that are eating my energy  :P

I think that will be the least of your worries -- you're going to be packing up a ton of hardware and heading for home, and deleting that one thing would just be one minor step in that.  And with knowledge raiding being a very occasional thing, that really seems like less of an issue to me.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Buttons840

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 559
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2010, 11:35:18 pm »
you should make the MKIII recycle itself when the planet is exausted  :P

This is actually a really good idea if the costs to make it are really steep and it takes forever to build (which I'm assuming since I haven't tried it yet).

I mean you're already throwing money away establishing the beach head and defending it; there (maybe) shouldn't be an even higher cost on top of that in the form of the research station that becomes completely useless after it's done its job (stationary/exhausted).  At least maybe a higher-then-default-scraping return or something, like 50%.

Scrap it yourself if you chose.  Or do you mean a full recycle where you get all or most of the resources back?  Also, it would be nice to be able to gift these to allies to share the knowledge.  I'd hate for it to destruct itself when I wanted to gift it.

As for gifting, please allow it (or allow it to stay? is it already possible?).  You can gift it and save some resources, but you still have to be invested in holding the beachhead, so it's not overly powerful.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 11:37:46 pm by Buttons840 »

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2010, 11:41:41 pm »
Definitely you can gift these, and that would stay.  That would probably be the most effective way for teams to gather knowledge off a forward planet, assuming that they have an effective beachhead.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2010, 12:01:14 am »
clarification on some things - when you build multiple research stations.. the reinforcement penalty multiplies, right? is this intended for multi-user games? I can just see a situation where 4 or 5 players k-raid at the same time and spawn a few thousand units on the next reinforcement wave...

We may have to account for that, yeah.  Probably these specific units should not stack, but it's just a flat 2x multiplier if any of them are there.  Of course, that adds inconsistencies, but I think something along those lines would make sense.  Keith, can you look at that?
perhaps you should add a note to the reinforcement bonus 'note: only one per planet of this type effective'?
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

rubikscube

  • Guest
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2010, 01:04:32 am »
well since you say you shouldn't really need to knowledge raid, i won't, i will capture anything in my way and rightfully get my knowledge ;D

Offline superking

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,205
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2010, 09:22:47 am »
new K-raiding is cool, having a good game. sure makes choosing upgrades more difficult though  :)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2010, 10:21:46 am »
Awesome. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Doddler

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2010, 01:05:32 pm »
clarification on some things - when you build multiple research stations.. the reinforcement penalty multiplies, right? is this intended for multi-user games? I can just see a situation where 4 or 5 players k-raid at the same time and spawn a few thousand units on the next reinforcement wave...

We may have to account for that, yeah.  Probably these specific units should not stack, but it's just a flat 2x multiplier if any of them are there.  Of course, that adds inconsistencies, but I think something along those lines would make sense.  Keith, can you look at that?

Multipliers stacking is problematic.  In a test game with cheats I had three golems, which caused 125x reinforcement rates (5*5*5) rather than 15x that I expected (5+5+5).  The result was that the AI instantly reinforced a system with 100 ships with an additional 6000 instantly, which (once my system was able to respond, which took minutes) quickly destroyed all 3 golems, got released via border agression and killed me :P.  Perhaps multipliers should stack addatively before adjusting the final number?  Or just generally be smaller in number so you don't have monstrous unexpected AI explosion.

Offline Ktoff

  • Full Member Mark III
  • ***
  • Posts: 247
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2010, 01:27:17 pm »
Weeeeelll.... 3 golems on a planet? i am not sure chris will take any measures to make this easier, but still i agree. two golems can happen easily without cheats and it makes it nearly impossible then to use both

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2010, 01:46:54 pm »
clarification on some things - when you build multiple research stations.. the reinforcement penalty multiplies, right? is this intended for multi-user games? I can just see a situation where 4 or 5 players k-raid at the same time and spawn a few thousand units on the next reinforcement wave...

We may have to account for that, yeah.  Probably these specific units should not stack, but it's just a flat 2x multiplier if any of them are there.  Of course, that adds inconsistencies, but I think something along those lines would make sense.  Keith, can you look at that?

Multipliers stacking is problematic.  In a test game with cheats I had three golems, which caused 125x reinforcement rates (5*5*5) rather than 15x that I expected (5+5+5).  The result was that the AI instantly reinforced a system with 100 ships with an additional 6000 instantly, which (once my system was able to respond, which took minutes) quickly destroyed all 3 golems, got released via border agression and killed me :P.  Perhaps multipliers should stack addatively before adjusting the final number?  Or just generally be smaller in number so you don't have monstrous unexpected AI explosion.

Bear in mind that it is already hugely capped.  With those multipliers, in the past we were seeing something like 20,000 ships appearing instantly, which broke the game for some players.  So what you were seeing was just a tiny little drop in the bucket there, and would not go up any higher than you saw even if you had something like 10 golems in the system.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline CodeMichael

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2010, 03:17:08 pm »
So let me see if I understand the intent:
  • You want knowledge raiding to be something only skilled players do if they have the time and resources.
  • You're making it unwise for normal players to knowledge raid.
  • Pretty much you want to further limit the amount of knowledge available
  • You still cannot get knowledge unless you have supply to a planet

So my questions are then:
  • Why continue to have research stations at all? Why not simply remove research station and have command stations gather knowledge at the same rate as research stations do today?
  • Should a stationary research station that causes reinforcements be a completely different unit, rather than a mkIII?  It's not an improved version of mkI or mkII, it's a whole new unit type in that case.  It's purpose is almost completely dissimilar from mkI and mkII stations.

If your goal is to all but require someone to take a planet in order to get the knowledge off it, then simply combine the knowledge gathering as an act of taking a planet, its not an action that requires thought or consideration on the part of the player other than remembering to do it.  There aren't too many situations where you will not want to build a command station if you are blowing up the enemy command station (and none if you make knowledge gathering a function of command stations).  Then research stations become two items, the ARS that you capture for new ships, and the "knowledge factory" which you use for knowledge raiding.  It would help cut down on confusion for new players certainly.

Please tell me if I've completely missed the mark on your intent with these changes.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2010, 03:26:11 pm »
So let me see if I understand the intent:
  • You want knowledge raiding to be something only skilled players do if they have the time and resources.
  • You're making it unwise for normal players to knowledge raid.
  • Pretty much you want to further limit the amount of knowledge available
  • You still cannot get knowledge unless you have supply to a planet

So my questions are then:
  • Why continue to have research stations at all? Why not simply remove research station and have command stations gather knowledge at the same rate as research stations do today?
  • Should a stationary research station that causes reinforcements be a completely different unit, rather than a mkIII?  It's not an improved version of mkI or mkII, it's a whole new unit type in that case.  It's purpose is almost completely dissimilar from mkI and mkII stations.

If your goal is to all but require someone to take a planet in order to get the knowledge off it, then simply combine the knowledge gathering as an act of taking a planet, its not an action that requires thought or consideration on the part of the player other than remembering to do it.  There aren't too many situations where you will not want to build a command station if you are blowing up the enemy command station (and none if you make knowledge gathering a function of command stations).  Then research stations become two items, the ARS that you capture for new ships, and the "knowledge factory" which you use for knowledge raiding.  It would help cut down on confusion for new players certainly.

Please tell me if I've completely missed the mark on your intent with these changes.

Please see my notes either above in this thread, or over in the knowledge gathering superthread.  I've already addressed most of that.  To the points I had not addressed:

1. No, it's not meant to be unwise for normal players to knowledge raid.  And advanced players should not be knowledge raiding any more than normal players.  That's the problem we had before -- that advanced players knew to knowledge raid, but found it boring, while novice players had no idea to do so.  This changes it so that it's unwise for anyone to knowledge raid except when they have no other option (as a way to just have the game not be over in otherwise dead-end situations).  This was always the design intent.

2. I'm not particularly wanting to limit the amount of knowledge available -- actually the next version increases the cap from 2000 to 2500 per planet -- but there was a big disparity between players who knowledge raided and did not.  Since knowledge raiding was semi-obscure and also tedious, this was rewarding a tedious behavior and then making the game far too much easier when that tedious behavior was undertaken.  Both bad.  Now the tedium has been replaced by genuine difficulty, and enough of a time penalty that it is unquestionably not worth it to knowledge raid if you have much else in the way of options.  But with the knowledge increase in the next version, people shouldn't exactly feel starved for knowledge despite all the new things to spend knowledge on lately.

3. To the question of why this is a mark III science lab, that's a semantic argument I'm not going to get into.

4. To the question of why command stations don't bring in knowledge, that was also discussed at length in another thread -- I have good reasons for that, but they boil down to "only someone who was knowledge raiding really heavily would even ask that."  Labs are still useful and make sense as a game mechanic, they just don't have the same function that some advanced players previously got used to.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!