Author Topic: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)  (Read 7357 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2010, 03:59:45 pm »
Well, you can still get the K, just takes more effort ;)
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Offline superking

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2010, 04:52:47 pm »
you should make the MKIII recycle itself when the planet is exausted  :P

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2010, 06:10:03 pm »
clarification on some things - when you build multiple research stations.. the reinforcement penalty multiplies, right? is this intended for multi-user games? I can just see a situation where 4 or 5 players k-raid at the same time and spawn a few thousand units on the next reinforcement wave...
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rubikscube

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2010, 06:24:12 pm »
multiplying reinforcements plus high priority :o while you are at it give us a bigger force field cap for the science lab will you? ;)

rubikscube

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2010, 06:35:35 pm »
now we really have to build beach heads >:(

rubikscube

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2010, 06:52:29 pm »
wait, i see the power to neuter the planet like i always do :o making a planet safe to cross and "easily" getting knowledge ftw, since i have a lot of time, i will leech some ships while i'm at it, i never got the hang of building beachheads till i really need to, especially if it's a big planet such as mk4 or core

rubikscube

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2010, 06:55:14 pm »
it's immune to sniper shots right ???

rubikscube

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2010, 07:03:37 pm »
how about mk 2 3 remains rebuilder, space dock (faster building) and of course CORE MOBILE BUILDER 8)

Offline Adetia

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2010, 08:13:05 pm »
Seriously 5 posts in a row? Think before you hit the post button. There is even an edit modify button in case you forget something!

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2010, 08:39:43 pm »
Seriously 5 posts in a row? Think before you hit the post button. There is even an edit modify button in case you forget something!
hey, you noticed too?

(also, all within a half hour too.)
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rubikscube

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2010, 08:44:48 pm »
thx for noticing ;)

Offline Loops

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2010, 09:07:56 pm »
Speaking from the nearly-clueless new-guy perspective, I cannot fathom the thinking behind these latest changes to science labs.  Just how long is it supposed to take to knowledge raid now?  And even after all the micromanagement, time and expense it gives the AI bonus reinforcements?  What problem did this solve?

And on a related note, I don't understand the desire to make just about everything that's supposed to be helpful a double-edged sword.  Distribution Nodes, ship caches, and golems all cause AI progress.  One reliably optimal strategic option is to ignore them all.  Was that the design goal?  I'd say the galaxy is already a pretty unfriendly place already without tainting nearly every possible beneficial option with negatives.  Even time is against us, after all.

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2010, 09:18:42 pm »
clarification on some things - when you build multiple research stations.. the reinforcement penalty multiplies, right? is this intended for multi-user games? I can just see a situation where 4 or 5 players k-raid at the same time and spawn a few thousand units on the next reinforcement wave...

We may have to account for that, yeah.  Probably these specific units should not stack, but it's just a flat 2x multiplier if any of them are there.  Of course, that adds inconsistencies, but I think something along those lines would make sense.  Keith, can you look at that?
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Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2010, 09:25:27 pm »
Speaking from the nearly-clueless new-guy perspective, I cannot fathom the thinking behind these latest changes to science labs.  Just how long is it supposed to take to knowledge raid now?  And even after all the micromanagement, time and expense it gives the AI bonus reinforcements?  What problem did this solve?

And on a related note, I don't understand the desire to make just about everything that's supposed to be helpful a double-edged sword.  Distribution Nodes, ship caches, and golems all cause AI progress.  One reliably optimal strategic option is to ignore them all.  Was that the design goal?  I'd say the galaxy is already a pretty unfriendly place already without tainting nearly every possible beneficial option with negatives.  Even time is against us, after all.

All the info you want is here: http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,5522.msg40222.html#msg40222

Rest assured, we're not morons and it was solving a rather serious problem.  Also, if you're having to knowledge raid a ton, there's a larger problem  at work here.

Regarding why everything has both positive and negative consequences, it's because it creates opportunity cost.  In a typical RTS game, you can just spam the best unit, build a bajillion of them repeatedly, and smash them against your opponent until your opponent is dead.  Next game, repeat.  Chess is specifically really interesting because every turn you get one move.  Moved that queen, did you?  Then you can't move your knight, which maybe then gets taken by your opponent.  Players choose to sacrifice the tempo for material, or vice versa.  Players trade material, in hopes of trading up.  And so on and so forth.

Many RTS games turn into games of speed and reflexes simply because there are no such checks and balances.  AI War is built around the idea of making that sort of Chess concept work in a realtime context.  So that's why there's some sort of penalty for... everything.  Each thing you do means that there is something else you couldn't do.  Otherwise you could just do everything, if you were prepared to spend enough time.  There are still a few players who do that even with AI War, but that's really hard to do and most don't (or don't at the regular difficulty levels).

Regarding distribution nodes, those are specifically a "candy" item -- they're there to tempt you, and they can be minorly helpful, but mostly they rot your teeth.  Again, that was something players had specifically asked for (like some form of change to knowledge raiding, there's a monster thread about that).  The ship caches are a lot more useful, but only in the right context.  And that goes back to my central point: you don't just pick up goodies because they are there.  You have to actually use the gray matter and decide which goodies are worth the costs of taking them, and when.  Otherwise there's not much strategy in a game like this...

Hope that clears things up a bit!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 09:32:52 pm by x4000 »
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Offline Trezamere

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Re: Prerelease 3.152 (Science Lab Mark III, More Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2010, 09:35:22 pm »
you should make the MKIII recycle itself when the planet is exausted  :P

This is actually a really good idea if the costs to make it are really steep and it takes forever to build (which I'm assuming since I haven't tried it yet).

I mean you're already throwing money away establishing the beach head and defending it; there (maybe) shouldn't be an even higher cost on top of that in the form of the research station that becomes completely useless after it's done its job (stationary/exhausted).  At least maybe a higher-then-default-scraping return or something, like 50%.