Author Topic: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)  (Read 3175 times)

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2010, 11:58:40 am »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2010, 12:38:45 pm »
Why the resistance to both parties?  If one crowd wants knowledge raiding to the more automated in the late game, and another wants it to require more attention and be more difficult why can't both be appeased?
That's a good question.  Generally I'm quite happy to provide optional units/mechanics to suit people who like a different game (the 3.120 cycle had a lot of that stuff, for example; this cycle has been more about improving the interface and reducing micro, etc).  

The only time I get resistant is if I think it's striking at a core of the game design.  Chris brought me on-board largely to keep AI War updates coming and let him focus more time on Tidalis (though I've been pulled in on that side too since then) and gives me a very free hand in deciding how to do that, but that means I have to be careful not to take the game in a direction he does not want it to go.  As it was, my middle-ground solution for the k-raiding thing which kinda-sorta pleased folks like you looks like it would have been way too far away from the core design behind knowledge-raiding (which I had never actually understood, turns out), so I was actually erring significantly on the side of being too-little-resistant in that case.

For what it's worth, if you find that you really want the extra knowledge you could get from late-game k-raiding without the trouble (which will be significantly more with the stationary stations that require significant build time, etc), there is a cheat that simply gives you 10K knowledge.  But my guess is that you would probably have more fun than you're currently having simply not feeling that you have to k-raid more than 1-2 planets in a normal game (if that).
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Offline Ktoff

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2010, 12:38:55 pm »
Well, it seems knowledgeraiding is dead as of the next prerelease :-) soooo... no trivial tedium :-D

Classical case of 'be careful what you wish for...

Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2010, 12:39:07 pm »
This comment is inspired by the knowledge raiding question, but not related specifically too it, so I will mention it here:

Why the resistance to both parties?  If one crowd wants knowledge raiding to the more automated in the late game, and another wants it to require more attention and be more difficult why can't both be appeased?

Personally I rarely have anyone to play with so it's mostly a single players experience.  When it comes to single player, why is my playing the same way as everyone else more important that playing with the mechanics I consider most fun?  Or more simply put, if they don't like something, they don't have to use it.

I've applied this to knowledge, but it can be applied to many game principles.

Well, this boils down to the fact that this is a game, not a freeform blob of clay.  In other words, it needs to have some sort of coherent design, rather than being a "meh, do whatever you want" sort of thing.  It ceases to be much of a game if you make it too amorphous.

But more specifically, this is a strategy game: people will use things that are most advantageous in order to win.  If there is something unbalanced, people will abuse it and lose interest.  I certainly would.  It's something we all do, and it sort of shoots us in the foot if the game designers aren't watching out for us.  That's why people lose interest in unbalanced games, because it's no fun to play without "tactic A" if you know that you can just win by using "tactic A" if you really have to.

Generally I try to create as much opportunities for player freedom as possible.  However, in no way am I designing this game by committee, and I'm making the best decisions (and/or taking the best suggestions) that I think will lead to the best game health in the long term, for everyone.  That means that not everyone is going to like every decision made, and that's something that game designers just have to get used to.  The typical game designer response seems to be to just stop talking to players at all (or never talk to them in the first place), but that isn't something I want to do.

Why doesn't an orange taste like a strawberry?  Well, because it's an orange.  If you prefer strawberries, eat strawberries.  If there aren't any strawberries around, that isn't the fault of the orange makers.  That might sound combative, but I don't mean it that way.  It's simply a fact that there are way more of you guys than there are of us here at Arcen, and that Feature A that most people love still might be reviled by some minority.  Our job as responsible game designers is to act based on our professional judgement, rather than just following the ever-changing whims of the crowd.  That said, the crowd raises a lot of great points, and often is full of wonderful suggestions, so it's not like we ignore the crowd, either.

In short, it's a fine line to walk, and we do the best we can to let everyone have their own personal favorite type of experience, but the overall health of the game comes first (no exploits or game-breaking easy-wins).  Someone is always going to be unhappy with something, and that's just something I've had to resign myself to.  Like I said, we do the best we can.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2010, 12:45:50 pm »
Well, it seems knowledgeraiding is dead as of the next prerelease :-) soooo... no trivial tedium :-D

Classical case of 'be careful what you wish for...
Well, perhaps, but I would say on the contrary that it was very good that he started that thread, even for his enjoyment of the game.  It really brought to light that a particular technique was really out of kilter with the design behind it, and needs to be redone.  To put it simply: k-raiding was making the game too easy; if you find it's too hard with the new model, drop back to diff 7 or whatever.  If it's still way too hard, let us know specifics and we can work on those.  The idea isn't to make the game harder, but rather keep the various techniques and strategies in their proper place.  As it is, knowledge raiding is one of those "no-brainer" decisions; of course you're going to do it! We don't want it to be one of those, and one reason is we really really don't want players to feel like they have to k-raid every planet (which gets tedious, quite understandably).
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Offline Ktoff

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2010, 12:49:01 pm »
I know, and i really like how you guys constantly kill off optimum strategies. This makes the game worthwhile.

And even if this continues to make a better game, and probably won't even have any (negative) impact on the fun Button has in his games, it is certainly not what he intended when he started the hottest discussion topic ever :-)

Offline Buttons840

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2010, 12:50:08 pm »
Why the resistance to both parties?  If one crowd wants knowledge raiding to the more automated in the late game, and another wants it to require more attention and be more difficult why can't both be appeased?
That's a good question.  Generally I'm quite happy to provide optional units/mechanics to suit people who like a different game (the 3.120 cycle had a lot of that stuff, for example; this cycle has been more about improving the interface and reducing micro, etc).  

The only time I get resistant is if I think it's striking at a core of the game design.  Chris brought me on-board largely to keep AI War updates coming and let him focus more time on Tidalis (though I've been pulled in on that side too since then) and gives me a very free hand in deciding how to do that, but that means I have to be careful not to take the game in a direction he does not want it to go.  As it was, my middle-ground solution for the k-raiding thing which kinda-sorta pleased folks like you looks like it would have been way too far away from the core design behind knowledge-raiding (which I had never actually understood, turns out), so I was actually erring significantly on the side of being too-little-resistant in that case.

For what it's worth, if you find that you really want the extra knowledge you could get from late-game k-raiding without the trouble (which will be significantly more with the stationary stations that require significant build time, etc), there is a cheat that simply gives you 10K knowledge.  But my guess is that you would probably have more fun than you're currently having simply not feeling that you have to k-raid more than 1-2 planets in a normal game (if that).

Thanks for the reply.  I removed my comment as you were writing it seems.

I will restate:

If the community is divided on an issue why not implement something that appeases both crowds.  Since the game is often single player not everyone has to play by the same rules.  If someone doesn't like a game mechanic, they don't have to use it.  (I don't micromanage energy reactors, and I consider this a self-imposed rule which adds to the difficulty and reduces the micro.  Etc.)


Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2010, 12:56:32 pm »
If the community is divided on an issue why not implement something that appeases both crowds.
When we can do that without doing something unpleasant to the underlying design, we generally do :)
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Offline Buttons840

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2010, 12:56:42 pm »
I know, and i really like how you guys constantly kill off optimum strategies. This makes the game worthwhile.

And even if this continues to make a better game, and probably won't even have any (negative) impact on the fun Button has in his games, it is certainly not what he intended when he started the hottest discussion topic ever :-)

You didn't see my "free the control nodes!!!" campaign...  :)

And x4000, I believe your interaction with the community reduces the "it's not what I wanted!" rage.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2010, 12:58:09 pm »
You didn't see my "free the control nodes!!!" campaign...  :)
Haha, I think the list of banned-from-the-dinner-table topics has since been revised to "Religion, Politics, and Control Nodes".
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Offline Buttons840

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2010, 01:25:31 pm »
What is the context menu?  Something added since the last official?


Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2010, 01:28:44 pm »
Yes, it's new since 3.120.  X+right-click brings it up, though most of the functions rely on having the relevant ships selected.  Auto-explore doesn't show unless you have scouts in your selection, auto-gather-knowledge doesn't unless you have knowledge-gatherers in your selection, arc-place and build-from-construction-template don't show unless your selection is a command station or mobile builder, etc.

The running beta notes ( http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Current_Beta ) have everything I've added to it thus far.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2010, 02:15:33 pm »
And x4000, I believe your interaction with the community reduces the "it's not what I wanted!" rage.

Many thanks, I think it does seem to help, yes.  People may not always agree with every decision, but at least they have a chance to understand the logic behind it. I've certainly had my fair share of frustration with decision decisions in a bazillion other games I've played, so I can sympathize!
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2010, 02:24:27 pm »
Yea, I can certainly sympathize too.  Though it's not so easy from the developer side too, trying to find a solution to an often large set of inter-related problems (with disagreement among players as to which ones are actually problems needing solving), and getting fussed at no matter what you do ;)

But this is a good community, fussing is usually surgical in scope and duration, rather than the constant climate that is so common on game forums and the like.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Prerelease 3.150 (Knowledge/Lab Changes)
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2010, 02:29:32 pm »
But this is a good community, fussing is usually surgical in scope and duration, rather than the constant climate that is so common on game forums and the like.

No kidding, we're incredibly lucky in that regard.
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