I think that Z mirrors are overpowered.

[Blahness]

They outrange any area of effect enemy (except attrition, which is minor), kill frigates, MLRS, missile turrets, and MLRS turrets relatively well, and every other ship and turret kills itself via reflection.  The only thing that really shines against them are fortresses, and we know how much the AI likes fortresses (not, except for the Baron.)  Heck, they out range Spec posts and most stationary defenses, and they are immune to one of the few things that'd actually hurt it and not reflect (melee). 

I propose a range nerf.

[keith.lamothe]

Judging by history, I think forum posts about balance are overpowered

[Blahness]

I must be stupid or fatally tired, but what do you mean? <_<

[RCIX]

Well, i can at least offer my countering opinion that i feel they're not really worth it; they are expensive and die quickly dealing good damage only to units that are good at killing others of their own kind.

[keith.lamothe]

I must be stupid or fatally tired, but what do you mean? <_<

I'm tired too, or my humor might make more sense.  I meant that the act of posting "xyz is overpowered" in this forum has had a rather high effect in the history of this game, and thus must be overpowered, and should be nerfed

That said, the mirrors are rather volatile-ly balanced; some things they eat for breakfast, some things do the same to them.  I'm interested to hear what others think of their balance.

[Blahness]

They do damage equivalent to fighters at ranges further than anything but dreads, bombards, and turrets, and can run from fighters, bombers, and even frigates fast enough to kill equivalent-sized groups without taking too much damage.

In close range, they'll kill the enemy no problem, but will die as well.  However, they're the best as artillery and bait-n-run.

While I'm at it, the higher-mark z-mirrors gain ridiculous hp.  I can, upon starting the game, max out z-mirrors and have over 100 units with 900k hp running around, doing mk 3 fighter damage.


And while I'm at it, mk2 and mk3 force field bearers gain like no hp.  You can see their simulation stats hugely drop against every other unit in the game.  148k hp at mk 3?  Hell, bombers have more than that; fighters have almost that.  How can it defend other units when it's made of paper itself (not to mention the massive bonuses bombers, electric shuttles, raider starships, and some cannons get).  mk 1 forcefields are just fine, but they don't scale well at all.  There's no reason for a mk4 defender unit to have less hp than a fighter.

And on closer look, only mk 4 z-mirrors have blade immunity.  Sorry for the mistake. >_>

I'm playing with only Z-mirrors right now, which is what's making this post continually update.

Z-mirrors actually out-range MLRS turrets (every mark).  That's one less missile source that affects Z-mirrors.

Found fortress. Wiped out several hundred z-mirrors.

I can outrange, outspeed, and annihilate every starship in the flagship line (except spire).  I just took down two flagships and a zenith starship without losing a single ship simply by flying backwards, since z mirrors ever so slightly outspeed them.  Leeches are also trivially outrangable, although they can catch up after a long while (imagine crossing 13k at 2 speed), and don't have much health.  Raid starships... commit suicide.  Literally.  They'll take down 2, maybe 3 z mirrors before imploding.

[Doddler]

I dunno, I think Z Mirrors are ok.  I love them, and they decimate bombers and other physical projectile units.  However, they can't reflect damage outside of a specific range, they have no shielding at all, and they take triple damage from everything, including things it can't reflect projectiles on.  They're really good, but I'm not specifically sure overpowered would be the term I'd use.

Although, its pretty strange they're immune to blade attacks, considering cutlass and vampire claw apparantly have a 3x damage modifier against mirrors.

[Spikey00]

Are they really immune to melee attacks, because then that probably is the problem--I think it may neutralize the advantage somewhat when those annoying SHINK SHINK SHINK vessels do some SHINK SHINK SHINKing, especially if they were Viral Shredders (in which case there would be more SHINK SHINK SHINKs).

[FrostyThePyro]

I thought they couldnt relfect missle ammo, shouldnt frigats (and ether jets) take them apart?

[keith.lamothe]

Heavy beam cannons should shred them up pretty good (though maybe not without a multiplier), but the AI doesn't have many of those anymore.

[Draxis]

In the last game I played, after every attack most of my mirrors were dead.  By the end of the game, they had killed less than half their own numbers - By a huge margin my most under-performing unit.  You could argue they were being shot so my other units were not, and that they dealt a heap of damage but didn't quite kill most the time, but I dont think this is the case.  When I removed them from my build rotation, overall fleet performance didn't noticeably decrease, but the time and resources required to rebuild the fleet after a battle were significantly reduced.  It could just have been the AI's we were fighting (Teleport Turtle and Bully), but these are on my 'worthless units' list now.

[superking]

I found them to be very weak. anything they reflect targets them on the lowest priority and just kills your other units, anything that hurts them REALLY hurts them and takes them apart. their attack does almost nothing. I used them alot for a while but eventually decided they wernt making cost

[Blahness]

Hmm... maybe it's because I play F+D?  Long-ranged ships are better on F+D, since you get quadruple damage and only double speed.

[Buttons840]

I must be stupid or fatally tired, but what do you mean? <_<

I'm tired too, or my humor might make more sense.  I meant that the act of posting "xyz is overpowered" in this forum has had a rather high effect in the history of this game, and thus must be overpowered, and should be nerfed

That said, the mirrors are rather volatile-ly balanced; some things they eat for breakfast, some things do the same to them.  I'm interested to hear what others think of their balance.

There's nothing wrong with this.  It's fun to have effective units, even if they are boarding on overpowered in some situations.

We can get balance from any old competitive game; this is co-op only, so nothing wrong with enjoying the occasional OP unit.